Author Topic: How to count assists?  (Read 4043 times)

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How to count assists?
« on: March 20, 2010, 06:45:36 PM »

Offline cdif911

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Ok after hearing about Rondo's potential record, I had a revolutionary idea which could make the NBA draw some interest from people who generally are not basketball fans, but perhaps aspiring statisticians

when teams count assists, there is some sort of a team official who does the official scorekeeping -  This means in some arenas it's considerably easier to get an assist than in others

so why not use the Wikipedia model and allow anyone tuned into the game (perhaps via NBA League pass) to tally on their own.  Perhaps there would have to be an initiation period where the person is judged against the norm established by the group to make sure someone doesn't count more assists than baskets in a game, but anyways

then you take the composite of all users, perhaps subtract any ridiculously high or low numbers (and users who give a 0 to a guy who got an average of 7.5, or who gave 30 to a guy who got an average of 2 get a warning then a banning) and then that number becomes the assist total for the game.  Round if needed. This idea eliminates the subjective nature of the home scorer, adds a new element to being a fan and watching a game.

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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2010, 07:59:15 PM »

Offline mgent

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I bet a lot of people would suck at that.
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2010, 11:34:52 PM »

Offline cdif911

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but if you get enough people the statistically challenged will be overwhelmed by those who are good at it - eliminates hometown bias - law of averages, right?
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 01:56:29 PM »

Offline cdif911

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also I think a pass that leads to a foul where the player gets 2 ft's should count as an assist if he hits both and a 1/2 if he hits one.  It's really the same as a basket, yet doesn't get recognized
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 02:22:00 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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To vulnerable to spiking an manipulation by agents. Think about it, players are paid based on their numbers so there would be big incentives to massage those numbers.

Look at how wonky the all-star voting is! Do we really want to extend that to official statistics?

Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 02:33:49 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Look at how wonky the all-star voting is! Do we really want to extend that to official statistics?

I agree.

Also, each official assist should be tied to a specific play.  Allowing fans to vote on nothing but a number takes this element away.

I don't think the answer to subjectivity / hometown bias is to amplify that subjectivity / bias by allowing a team's fanbase to vote on statistics. 

If this is a problem, why not have all official statistics come from (or at least be reviewed by) a central location.  For instance, if the league office was in charge of assists, it would take out the hometown bias, and in theory the same people would be looking at all passes, so there would be a uniformity of standard.

Of course, the downside to that is that fans would say that the league is slanting the statistics to the advantage of those players it wants to market.

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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2010, 02:36:24 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Look at how wonky the all-star voting is! Do we really want to extend that to official statistics?

I agree.

Also, each official assist should be tied to a specific play.  Allowing fans to vote on nothing but a number takes this element away.

I don't think the answer to subjectivity / hometown bias is to amplify that subjectivity / bias by allowing a team's fanbase to vote on statistics. 


Aren't scorekeepers employees of the home team?

Having them paid by the league and travel like an additional member of the officiating crew would probably help the problem.

Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 02:48:59 PM »

Offline incoherent

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Look at how wonky the all-star voting is! Do we really want to extend that to official statistics?

I agree.

Also, each official assist should be tied to a specific play.  Allowing fans to vote on nothing but a number takes this element away.

I don't think the answer to subjectivity / hometown bias is to amplify that subjectivity / bias by allowing a team's fanbase to vote on statistics. 


Aren't scorekeepers employees of the home team?

Having them paid by the league and travel like an additional member of the officiating crew would probably help the problem.

That would mean David Stern makes less... not gonna happen.

Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 03:00:54 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Sorry, but...  BAD idea. 

I'd wager that pretty much every team keeps their own totals, anyway.  I know the C's track things like deflections (which aren't an official stat), I imagine they keep track of "real" assists. 

Letting fans vote isn't the answer; thinking that LeBron might start averaging 20 APG!

Here's a related question; how 'bout tracking "hockey assists"?  The pass that leads to the pass that leads to the basket.  Nothing more beautiful than when the ball zips from player to player to open player who scores; why should only the middle guy get credit for the assist?  Would you see more ball movement, the ball sticking less in the low post, if guys knew they'd get credit for making a good pass even if it doesn't DIRECTLY lead to the basket?

Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2010, 03:04:08 PM »

Offline cdif911

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I think the idea of an exclusive group which does the tracking, as opposed to an official homebook should be looked at though.  I've heard from multiple sources that different scorers count assists differently.  Its harder to do this with scoring/rebounding as they are pretty black and white (though 2 guys coming down for a board together can happen) - the last pass before a basket isn't always an assist.  Therefore a judgement call needs to be made.  Maybe if there's some sort of check on it as was said with the home scorer going to away games...or having rotating scorers not tied to a team (perhaps the 4th ref could do this instead of sitting in the back hoping no one gets hurt)
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2010, 03:11:22 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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IF you think this is a big deal...  since the official scorer is a team employee, why not have the visiting team bring their official scorer along on the trip?  If there's a significant discrepancy between their two tallies (more than one or two assists/rebounds), appeal to the league office.

I just have a hard time seeing this as a huge issue, since you know that so many of the teams (Dallas/Houston come to mind in particular) are VERY stats-oriented, you know that they're keeping track of "good" numbers themselves.

It's never going to be perfect, anyway; if you're looking to measure Rondo against CP3, as an example, you've also got to consider the systems that they're playing in and how that affects assist totals.  Brevin Knight used to rack up huge assist numbers, but more because of the system he was playing in rather than his actually being a better-than-average player.

The numbers could be measured perfectly, but there's only so much precision you can have even with "perfect" measurement because of how different offensive sets work.

Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2010, 03:33:00 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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when teams count assists, there is some sort of a team official who does the official scorekeeping -  This means in some arenas it's considerably easier to get an assist than in others
No, it isn't. There is a standardized rule for what's an assist and what isn't. When the scoring player takes more than 1 dribble with the ball, the pass stops being an assist. So any move that's less than 1 dribble and 2 steps is assisted.
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2010, 03:47:13 PM »

Offline cdif911

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when teams count assists, there is some sort of a team official who does the official scorekeeping -  This means in some arenas it's considerably easier to get an assist than in others
No, it isn't. There is a standardized rule for what's an assist and what isn't. When the scoring player takes more than 1 dribble with the ball, the pass stops being an assist. So any move that's less than 1 dribble and 2 steps is assisted.

ok, say a player catches a pass, gets into a triple threat, takes a jab step 1 dribble, pull up jumper, swish - that's an assist?  I don't think so.

And if a guy throws an outlet which leads to a 2 dribble layup, that's not an assist? I've seen it counted as one

that's the problem, even if there is a formula, it isn't always followed to a t
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2010, 03:52:42 PM »

Offline cdif911

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when teams count assists, there is some sort of a team official who does the official scorekeeping -  This means in some arenas it's considerably easier to get an assist than in others
No, it isn't. There is a standardized rule for what's an assist and what isn't. When the scoring player takes more than 1 dribble with the ball, the pass stops being an assist. So any move that's less than 1 dribble and 2 steps is assisted.

read this and tell me there aren't potential problems:

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

""In the NBA, an assist is a pass leading directly to a basket," he says. "That's inherently subjective. What does that really mean in practice? The definition is massively variable according to who you talk to. The Jazz guys were pretty open about their liberalities. ... John Stockton averaged 10 assists. Is that legit? It's legit because they entered it. If he's another guy, would he get 10? Probably not." - Former Grizzlies statistician
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Re: How to count assists?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2010, 03:54:42 PM »

Offline cdif911

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when teams count assists, there is some sort of a team official who does the official scorekeeping -  This means in some arenas it's considerably easier to get an assist than in others
No, it isn't. There is a standardized rule for what's an assist and what isn't. When the scoring player takes more than 1 dribble with the ball, the pass stops being an assist. So any move that's less than 1 dribble and 2 steps is assisted.

read this and tell me there aren't potential problems:

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

""In the NBA, an assist is a pass leading directly to a basket," he says. "That's inherently subjective. What does that really mean in practice? The definition is massively variable according to who you talk to. The Jazz guys were pretty open about their liberalities. ... John Stockton averaged 10 assists. Is that legit? It's legit because they entered it. If he's another guy, would he get 10? Probably not." - Former Grizzlies statistician


ps linking article has a naughty word in it, so parental discression is advised
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