Sheed vs SWilliams: I feel safer with SWilliams on the floor

[Birdbrain]

I don't believe anyone is claiming that Shelden is a star.

And while Sheed is certainly a better offensive player, I don't quite get this firm conviction that 2010 Sheed is a better defender.

Mike

No offense, but Perk and Sheed are the only ones Doc should trust to guard DHoward in the playoffs.

And Rashard Lewis may be too quick for Williams.

I'll take rebonds and knowing your roll more then a few charges. Basically I can't stand Baby anymore. He's weak in the head and now he's weak on the floor.  But Doc likes him more so this argument is useless.

BBD is irrelevant after the next trade deadline. Let's keep pumping him up. 

I've enjoyed your posts the past days.  Keep up the good discussion.  For such new member you sure do make a lot of posts...

[Birdbrain]

I feel safer going 60 in a 65 in the right hand lane of the highway, but I dont get to my destination nearly as fast.

With Williams getting more time you would be broke down on the side of the road.

[Birdbrain]

Sheed is a better defender
Sheed is a better rebounder
Sheed is a better interior scorer
Sheed has better hands
Sheed is a better outside shooter
Sheed is a better passer
Sheed is a better FT shooter
Willams gets less Techs although he did get one last night..

Also in regards to the Sheed fouling instead of challenging some of that is be design.  Check the time in the period and the player he's fouling before assuming he's taking the easy way out.

This is the old Trent Dilfer vs Brett Farve thing. Give me Dilfer. 

Sheed may actually be the better outside shooter. But that's sort of a problem, isn't it?

Ugh no and like I said he does every single conceivable thing on the court better than Williams.

BBD as well.

You would take Dilfer... that's right you were the guy that said Minny made a mistake bringing Favre back.  The internet where analogies go to die.

[Onslaught]

Sheed is a better defender
Sheed is a better rebounder
Sheed is a better interior scorer
Sheed has better hands
Sheed is a better outside shooter
Sheed is a better passer
Sheed is a better FT shooter
Willams gets less Techs although he did get one last night..

Also in regards to the Sheed fouling instead of challenging some of that is be design.  Check the time in the period and the player he's fouling before assuming he's taking the easy way out.

This is the old Trent Dilfer vs Brett Farve thing. Give me Dilfer. 

Sheed may actually be the better outside shooter. But that's sort of a problem, isn't it?

Ugh no and like I said he does every single conceivable thing on the court better than Williams.

BBD as well.

You would take Dilfer... that's right you were the guy that said Minny made a mistake bringing Favre back.  The internet where analogies go to die.

No

[Eja117]

Sheed is a better defender
Sheed is a better rebounder
Sheed is a better interior scorer
Sheed has better hands
Sheed is a better outside shooter
Sheed is a better passer
Sheed is a better FT shooter
Willams gets less Techs although he did get one last night..

Also in regards to the Sheed fouling instead of challenging some of that is be design.  Check the time in the period and the player he's fouling before assuming he's taking the easy way out.

This is the old Trent Dilfer vs Brett Farve thing. Give me Dilfer. 

Sheed may actually be the better outside shooter. But that's sort of a problem, isn't it?

Ugh no and like I said he does every single conceivable thing on the court better than Williams.

BBD as well.

You would take Dilfer... that's right you were the guy that said Minny made a mistake bringing Favre back.  The internet where analogies go to die.

Exactly. They get maybe one whole year where they go to the NFC Championship game, let him throw another of his trademark game losing TDs, lose a valuable year of development for a young QB and high draft choices, he leaves in a year or two, and they're right back where they were only not as good.


I don't think Sheed is that bad. He's not the only reason we lose lots of games. Just a very big one.

I'd rather have a guy that tries real hard to get 5 rebs a game, then passes it to a scorer and runs down the court and doesn't take shots he can't make than a guy who doesn't try real hard to get 6 rebs, plays lazy making the other players realize they can do it too, then jacks up a three which he really only makes cause he throws so many up.

Is Sheed better than a healthy Powe too?

[Potapenko Boxout]

For what it's worth (not much), I got into a fight with Chris Forsberg on espn.com regarding this issue. See below.

Q: Chris do you agree with Doc Rivers' big-man rotation? Isn't having both Glen Davis and Rasheed Wallace in there simultaneously a bit redundant? Don't we want to get rebounds? It's Shelden Williams time!!! -- Myles (Melrose)


A: I love our readers, but you're falling victim to the "this guy hasn't played in a while" theorem, whereby a bench player who wasn't very productive falls from the rotation, but is romanticized because of short bursts of potential displayed previously. While I'll grant you Williams could add a rebounding presence, it should not come at the expense of playing time for Wallace and Davis, who both looked mighty impressive in the second-half opener against Sacramento Tuesday night. For Davis, that's two rock-solid weeks of terrific hoops.


a week later -

Myles (Melrose)


I'm right about Doc needing to play Shelden. You tell me when you're ready to come around.

Chris Forsberg  (2:43 PM)


Absolutely not. And, sadly, Shelden has become the anti-Gino, the venerable white flag when opponents put the game out of reach late. The Celtics' troubles run much deeper than simply defensive rebounding (remember, you can't rebound when the team makes 65% of its shots in the second half).

Myles (Melrose)


Can you statistically back up your Shelden bashing? No?

Chris Forsberg  (2:47 PM)


Even his <a href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willish02.html" target="new">points per 36 minutes[/url] are the worst of his career, which speaks volumes to me. On a good team, he should at least see an uptick in those numbers, particularly given the opportunity he was afforded at the start of the season. Shelden's been a phenomenal teammate, but the only reason I see people clamoring for him is that Wallace has been so bad at times.

Myles (Melrose)


Points per 36 minutes? What? WEEEAAAAAAKkk

Chris Forsberg  (2:52 PM)


Not just points, all his stats per 36 minutes. Present an argument as to why he should be playing.



Myles (Melrose)


He's the best offensive rebounder on the team, his stats are skewed as a result of games like last night where he gets two minutes. Baby has done nothing this year except fall over too often.

Chris Forsberg  (3:01 PM)


I love your enthusiasm for Shelden, but I'm on the Glen Davis bandwagon. He's been great the past couple weeks since he's really found his role as an energy guy. I think his shot is improving and -- while he's way too prone to getting blocked around the basket -- if he could solidify that aspect of his game, he could get back near the player we saw in last year's playoffs.

[Birdbrain]

Sheed is a better defender
Sheed is a better rebounder
Sheed is a better interior scorer
Sheed has better hands
Sheed is a better outside shooter
Sheed is a better passer
Sheed is a better FT shooter
Willams gets less Techs although he did get one last night..

Also in regards to the Sheed fouling instead of challenging some of that is be design.  Check the time in the period and the player he's fouling before assuming he's taking the easy way out.

This is the old Trent Dilfer vs Brett Farve thing. Give me Dilfer. 

Sheed may actually be the better outside shooter. But that's sort of a problem, isn't it?

Ugh no and like I said he does every single conceivable thing on the court better than Williams.

BBD as well.

You would take Dilfer... that's right you were the guy that said Minny made a mistake bringing Favre back.  The internet where analogies go to die.

Exactly. They get maybe one whole year where they go to the NFC Championship game, let him throw another of his trademark game losing TDs, lose a valuable year of development for a young QB and high draft choices, he leaves in a year or two, and they're right back where they were only not as good.


I don't think Sheed is that bad. He's not the only reason we lose lots of games. Just a very big one.

I'd rather have a guy that tries real hard to get 5 rebs a game, then passes it to a scorer and runs down the court and doesn't take shots he can't make than a guy who doesn't try real hard to get 6 rebs, plays lazy making the other players realize they can do it too, then jacks up a three which he really only makes cause he throws so many up.

Is Sheed better than a healthy Powe too?

By about 10,000 miles. 

[Birdbrain]

For what it's worth (not much), I got into a fight with Chris Forsberg on espn.com regarding this issue. See below.

Q: Chris do you agree with Doc Rivers' big-man rotation? Isn't having both Glen Davis and Rasheed Wallace in there simultaneously a bit redundant? Don't we want to get rebounds? It's Shelden Williams time!!! -- Myles (Melrose)


A: I love our readers, but you're falling victim to the "this guy hasn't played in a while" theorem, whereby a bench player who wasn't very productive falls from the rotation, but is romanticized because of short bursts of potential displayed previously. While I'll grant you Williams could add a rebounding presence, it should not come at the expense of playing time for Wallace and Davis, who both looked mighty impressive in the second-half opener against Sacramento Tuesday night. For Davis, that's two rock-solid weeks of terrific hoops.


a week later -

Myles (Melrose)


I'm right about Doc needing to play Shelden. You tell me when you're ready to come around.

Chris Forsberg  (2:43 PM)


Absolutely not. And, sadly, Shelden has become the anti-Gino, the venerable white flag when opponents put the game out of reach late. The Celtics' troubles run much deeper than simply defensive rebounding (remember, you can't rebound when the team makes 65% of its shots in the second half).

Myles (Melrose)


Can you statistically back up your Shelden bashing? No?

Chris Forsberg  (2:47 PM)


Even his <a href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willish02.html" target="new">points per 36 minutes[/url] are the worst of his career, which speaks volumes to me. On a good team, he should at least see an uptick in those numbers, particularly given the opportunity he was afforded at the start of the season. Shelden's been a phenomenal teammate, but the only reason I see people clamoring for him is that Wallace has been so bad at times.

Myles (Melrose)


Points per 36 minutes? What? WEEEAAAAAAKkk

Chris Forsberg  (2:52 PM)


Not just points, all his stats per 36 minutes. Present an argument as to why he should be playing.



Myles (Melrose)


He's the best offensive rebounder on the team, his stats are skewed as a result of games like last night where he gets two minutes. Baby has done nothing this year except fall over too often.

Chris Forsberg  (3:01 PM)


I love your enthusiasm for Shelden, but I'm on the Glen Davis bandwagon. He's been great the past couple weeks since he's really found his role as an energy guy. I think his shot is improving and -- while he's way too prone to getting blocked around the basket -- if he could solidify that aspect of his game, he could get back near the player we saw in last year's playoffs.

Wow Chris Forsberg sounds like someone in the media that actually knows the game.  I think I'll start reading his columns a bit more.  I just assumed he was jut another blogger using PER or some other useless stat to back his opinions.

[Eja117]

Sheed is a better defender
Sheed is a better rebounder
Sheed is a better interior scorer
Sheed has better hands
Sheed is a better outside shooter
Sheed is a better passer
Sheed is a better FT shooter
Willams gets less Techs although he did get one last night..

Also in regards to the Sheed fouling instead of challenging some of that is be design.  Check the time in the period and the player he's fouling before assuming he's taking the easy way out.

This is the old Trent Dilfer vs Brett Farve thing. Give me Dilfer. 

Sheed may actually be the better outside shooter. But that's sort of a problem, isn't it?

Ugh no and like I said he does every single conceivable thing on the court better than Williams.

BBD as well.

You would take Dilfer... that's right you were the guy that said Minny made a mistake bringing Favre back.  The internet where analogies go to die.

Exactly. They get maybe one whole year where they go to the NFC Championship game, let him throw another of his trademark game losing TDs, lose a valuable year of development for a young QB and high draft choices, he leaves in a year or two, and they're right back where they were only not as good.


I don't think Sheed is that bad. He's not the only reason we lose lots of games. Just a very big one.

I'd rather have a guy that tries real hard to get 5 rebs a game, then passes it to a scorer and runs down the court and doesn't take shots he can't make than a guy who doesn't try real hard to get 6 rebs, plays lazy making the other players realize they can do it too, then jacks up a three which he really only makes cause he throws so many up.

Is Sheed better than a healthy Powe too?

By about 10,000 miles. 

Well I gotta disagree on pretty much every level.

Sheed might be better than Powe in an Antoine Walkery sort of way.

He's not a better interior guy cause he acts like he's allergic to the interior. Maybe if he actually went there he'd be better.

He has better hands...which just means he catches the ball and jacks up a game losing three.

He's a better outside shooter. I suppose he could shoot all the way from the other end of the court and hit 1 in a 100 shots, whereas Powe or Sheldon could only hit 1 in 300, but then if Wallace uses that logic to start jacking up 5 full court shots a game then I'd say he's actually a worse outside shooter because he hurts us with his outside shooting.

He's like one of those ball hogs in the gym whose talented and whose team always loses and some of the younger guys think he's good while some of the older guys just love to play against him as much as possible.

[Rondo_is_better]

Shelden is Communism (as a theory, not in practice) and Sheed is Capitalism.

With Shelden you're bound to get a solid performance within a certain range. He'll go out there, work hard, get a few rebounds etc, but his performance will never exceed that certain range.

With Sheed, you could hit the jackpot (20 pts, 8 rebounds, 2-3 blocked shots) one night and then get destroyed the next night when he goes 2-9 from three and gets 1 rebound in 25 minutes of play.

So yes, Shelden is the safer bet. But if you really want to succeed, you have to take risks, and that means putting Sheed on the floor and hoping it pans out.

[Neurotic Guy]

Shelden is, at best, a role player.  In fact, he is not even that yet since he does not get the regular minutes to be considered a role player.  But, if he had more minutes, his job would be uni-dimensional -- get position rebounds, hustle, try to keep the game in check while the starters rest. 

Sheed is not a role player.  He is the team's sixth man with multiple dimensions of play expected of him.  He is expected to add value offensively, defensively and on the boards.  If Shelden were to have Sheed's job, he would be vastly outplayed on a nightly basis.  Sheed has not been all of what I hoped, but he does have a complex role and has the talent set to deliver.  He is slower than I thought he'd be, but I do believe his skill set will help the C's be a tougher team in the playoffs. 

I like that Shelden has given the C's more than anyone thought, but he doesn't have the game Sheed has. 

[xmuscularghandix]

If you think Shelden is better than Sheed you need to buy a book on basketball.

[BudweiserCeltic]

If you think Shelden is better than Sheed you need to buy a book on basketball.

And read it twice.

[mmbaby]

Thought this post was about Sheed. I think Sheed, BBD and Sheldon are all pretty good players and getting better every day. We are lucky to have them and lucky to have Doc.

[BASS_THUMPER]

scal over any of em..