Cap Space for 2010.

[moiso]

I really believe that a decrease in minutes would mean fresher legs and an improvement in everything from defense to shooting percentages.

[Who]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

[Chris]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer.  He has scored less than 15 points only 12 times this year.  Pierce has in 7 games, but he also missed a hand full of games. 

I don't disagree that they need to find a way to aquire another scorer if they can (its easier said than done), but that doesn't change the fact that Ray Allen is still a very productive player, and for the right money would be very valuable to this team going forward.

[Chief]

I think Ray will want $8 million but at his age is only worth $5 million.

[Chief]

At 35 years old, Dominique Wilkins, averaged 17.8 ppg for the Celtics. The stats look ok on paper, but I remember him being awful that year.

[Who]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

[PLamb]

I think people are dramatically over estimating just how fast the drop off is for the quality of play for even Hall of Fame caliber shooting guards

George Gervin

Age 32 21.2 PPG
Age 33 16.2 PPG
Age 34 Retired

Pete Maravich

Age 31 22.6 PPG
Age 32 13.7 PPG
Age 33 Retired

Clyde Drexler

Age 33 19.3 PPG
Age 34 18.0 PPG
Age 35 18.4 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Joe Dumars

Age 33 14.7 PPG
Age 34 13.1 PPG
Age 35 11.3 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Earl Monroe

Age 33 17.8 PPG
Age 34 12.3 PPG
Age 35 7.4 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Mitch Ritchmond

Age 33 19.7 PPG
Age 34 17.4 PPG
Age 35 16.2 PPG
Age 36 4.1 PPG
Age 37 Retired
 
Sam Jones

Age 33 22.1 PPG
Age 34 21.3 PPG
Age 35 16.3 PPG
Age 36 Retired


These are the best some of the very best shooting guards ever

It's pretty obvious what the trend is

At age 36 their game is over or should have been over

Reggie Miller and Michael Jordan are exceptions to the rule

Just about every other SG ever follows the above pattern, that being come age 36 they are done

Danny Ainge has to have this information available to him and he has to know this given he was a shooting guard

I would extremely shocked if he guarantees a second year to Ray Allen

[Chief]

I think people are dramatically over estimating just how fast the drop off is for the quality of play for even Hall of Fame caliber shooting guards

George Gervin

Age 32 21.2 PPG
Age 33 16.2 PPG
Age 34 Retired

Pete Maravich

Age 31 22.6 PPG
Age 32 13.7 PPG
Age 33 Retired

Clyde Drexler

Age 33 19.3 PPG
Age 34 18.0 PPG
Age 35 18.4 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Joe Dumars

Age 33 14.7 PPG
Age 34 13.1 PPG
Age 35 11.3 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Earl Monroe

Age 33 17.8 PPG
Age 34 12.3 PPG
Age 35 7.4 PPG
Age 36 Retired

Mitch Ritchmond

Age 33 19.7 PPG
Age 34 17.4 PPG
Age 35 16.2 PPG
Age 36 4.1 PPG
Age 37 Retired
 
Sam Jones

Age 33 22.1 PPG
Age 34 21.3 PPG
Age 35 16.3 PPG
Age 36 Retired


These are the best some of the very best shooting guards ever

It's pretty obvious what the trend is

At age 36 their game is over or should have been over

Reggie Miller and Michael Jordan are exceptions to the rule

Just about every other SG ever follows the above pattern, that being come age 36 they are done

Danny Ainge has to have this information available to him and he has to know this given he was a shooting guard

I would extremely shocked if he guarantees a second year to Ray Allen

Scoring maybe the last thing to go. IF ppg is all that we are concerned about, then Ray has a couple years left. If we care about other parts of basketball, then Ray may not be worth the money. I say trade him while he's still got some value.

[Chris]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

[Fan from VT]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

Beyond Ray's small drop in efficiency this year, there's been a decrease in pure scoring as well. This hasn't been offset with increased efficiency. Just from watching games, it's clear that there are 3-4 plays where, two seasons ago, Ray would come off a screen with a little more burst and be able to turn the corner or pop open and shoot. This season, there are those 3-4 plays where it looks like he's going to do that, but then realizes he's not as far from his defender as expected, so he has to pull the ball back out and reset. It's a small detail, but I think it definitely shows he's losing a step on offense. the info someone posted previously kind of shows that once that step is gone, it really goes off a cliff; I'd rather that not happen while Ray is a Celtic if we can get something of value for him.

[Chris]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

No, I am just saying that other teams taking away Ray's offense, because Rondo and Perk cannot shoot is not a knock on Ray.  It doesn't matter who it is, if a team completely zeros in on any player, and gameplans their defense around them (other than a true superstar like Lebron), they are going to be ineffective.  But the fact that he is being game planned against proves his value.  So if Rondo improves his shooting enough to make the defense pay for sagging off him in order to double on Ray, then that is where Ray's value is.

Or put more simply, Ray will lose his value to this team, when teams do not need to respect his scoring ability.  That day has not come.

[Fan from VT]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

No, I am just saying that other teams taking away Ray's offense, because Rondo and Perk cannot shoot is not a knock on Ray.  It doesn't matter who it is, if a team completely zeros in on any player, and gameplans their defense around them (other than a true superstar like Lebron), they are going to be ineffective.  But the fact that he is being game planned against proves his value.  So if Rondo improves his shooting enough to make the defense pay for sagging off him in order to double on Ray, then that is where Ray's value is.

Or put more simply, Ray will lose his value to this team, when teams do not need to respect his scoring ability.  That day has not come.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Personally, I think defenses certainly have stopped focusing as much this year. I see noticeable differences between Ray now and Ray two years ago. Not that he's "bad" now, but he's a bit slower.

[Chris]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

No, I am just saying that other teams taking away Ray's offense, because Rondo and Perk cannot shoot is not a knock on Ray.  It doesn't matter who it is, if a team completely zeros in on any player, and gameplans their defense around them (other than a true superstar like Lebron), they are going to be ineffective.  But the fact that he is being game planned against proves his value.  So if Rondo improves his shooting enough to make the defense pay for sagging off him in order to double on Ray, then that is where Ray's value is.

Or put more simply, Ray will lose his value to this team, when teams do not need to respect his scoring ability.  That day has not come.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Personally, I think defenses certainly have stopped focusing as much this year. I see noticeable differences between Ray now and Ray two years ago. Not that he's "bad" now, but he's a bit slower.

Oh absolutely.  Of course he is slowing down.  But that doesn't mean he is not still a very effective player.  Yeah, he is no longer a max player, but at $7 million per year, I have a hard time believing they will find someone as productive, that they can actually get their hands on (and that right there is the key).

[Fan from VT]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

No, I am just saying that other teams taking away Ray's offense, because Rondo and Perk cannot shoot is not a knock on Ray.  It doesn't matter who it is, if a team completely zeros in on any player, and gameplans their defense around them (other than a true superstar like Lebron), they are going to be ineffective.  But the fact that he is being game planned against proves his value.  So if Rondo improves his shooting enough to make the defense pay for sagging off him in order to double on Ray, then that is where Ray's value is.

Or put more simply, Ray will lose his value to this team, when teams do not need to respect his scoring ability.  That day has not come.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Personally, I think defenses certainly have stopped focusing as much this year. I see noticeable differences between Ray now and Ray two years ago. Not that he's "bad" now, but he's a bit slower.

Oh absolutely.  Of course he is slowing down.  But that doesn't mean he is not still a very effective player.  Yeah, he is no longer a max player, but at $7 million per year, I have a hard time believing they will find someone as productive, that they can actually get their hands on (and that right there is the key).

And the fun as a fan!

[Who]

If Ray Allen cannot be a reliable 15ppg scorer then the Celtics need to go out and acquire another scorer.

It makes them overly vulnerable offensively.

Well, right now, he is a reliable 15ppg scorer. 

I'm not convinced of that. I'm very worried about Ray disappearing in a big playoff series.

Oh, I am sure he will...but as has been shown the last two years, that is because teams realize the way to kill the C's offense is by taking Ray away.  The Cavs and Magic have both shown that they know how to take Ray out of the game by shadowing him with one guy, and using the guys covering Perk and Rondo to sit in the passing lanes, so even if he beats his man, they can't get the ball to him.

The thing is, if Rondo and Perk were better offensive players, this would open things way up for them, but instead, it has completely dumbfounded them the last two years (Rondo especially), and caused them to be offensive liabilities. 

That is not Ray Allen's fault.

So Rondo, already a better offensive player than Ray, becoming better offensively, would help Ray return to true form? I have a hard time believing that. 

No, I am just saying that other teams taking away Ray's offense, because Rondo and Perk cannot shoot is not a knock on Ray.  It doesn't matter who it is, if a team completely zeros in on any player, and gameplans their defense around them (other than a true superstar like Lebron), they are going to be ineffective.  But the fact that he is being game planned against proves his value.  So if Rondo improves his shooting enough to make the defense pay for sagging off him in order to double on Ray, then that is where Ray's value is.

Or put more simply, Ray will lose his value to this team, when teams do not need to respect his scoring ability.  That day has not come.

I think that -- Ray being game planned out of the game and taking considerable resources to do it -- only has value for Boston if the rest of the team are able to take advantage of it.

Against Cleveland and against Orlando, they weren't able to take advantage. It was a large negative that greatly hindered the Celtics offense + Ray's own individual contributions during the series.