I'm Losing It

[shiggins]

Maybe I'm the one going crazy after reading everyone's posts, or maybe its because I'm not old enough to have watched 80's basketball, but I find the current NBA better than I can remember.  For reference, I have been watching since David Wesley was the Celtics main scorer...

Watching 90s Knicks basketball was brutal.  Slowdown handcheck basketball is not fun to watch.  By controlling where the ballhandler moves that goes against the way basketball is supposed to be played.  Players were just doing it because they used to be able to get away with it.  How is watching people push and prod as much as possibly without getting a whistle good to basketball?  Watching Derek Harper keep his hand on you the whole time wasnt good for the game.  Watching Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason beat people up isnt good to watch.  It takes away from what skilled players can do.  

I do agree that the referees do tend to take the game away from the players, but i find when I watch other sports its nearly the same thing.  One bad call in basketball is not nearly as detrimental as a bogus pass interference play in football, or the fact that you can call holding on every single play.  The whole spot of the ball is the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen...How scientific is finally searching under the pile until you find the ball, put it wherever you think it was supposed to be then bring the chains out for an "official" measurement?  Why are balls and strikes called by umpires when we can do it electronically?

There is wussification of this league in terms of flopping and flagrant fouls...(Big Baby's the other night)  Which I dont like.  There are a number of teams that just have no chance at all, but honestly maybe I'm crazy again, but I can find something that interests me in every single matchup.  I would love to watch the Kings play the TWolves.  I could enjoy the Bobcats against the Nets.  There are interesting players on every team.  With the way it works, there is always a chance young players from bad teams start to gel.  Nobody thought the Grizzlies would be doing what they are.  Everyone thought the Kings would be at like a .300 winning percentage.  But both teams are enjoyable to watch.  Watching bad teams in the NBA is more fun than watching the Pirates in baseball or the Lions in football...

Star calls ruin the game, but from all accounts that really isnt anything new.  I'm sure Larry and Magic got their calls in the 80s...People always feel nostalgic for the past.  Thats just how it is.  Grass is/was always greener.  True I didnt see it, but from my experience, this decades game is better than the last decades game at least.

Sometimes the games do smell fishy, but seriously, does anyone in their right minds believe that the NBA wanted the Spurs and the Pistons in the finals?  Do you think they had some alterior motive to make sure the Suns didnt reach the finals?  As a fan watching, it always feels like calls go against the Celtics, but then you read the other teams blog and watching the same exact game, start complaining and say how the Celtics got all the calls.

Negative actions on and off the court are completely different nowadays.  With media outlets and camera phones and everything else, there is nothing a player can do without having it found out.  I honestly feel players are probably better behaved now because of it.  We laugh about Wilt Chamberlain and Mickey Mantle nowadays.  If they were doing what they did during this time period it would be a whole other story.  Same with Magic and any number of players.  

And in terms of Euro League and College.  I watch and love it all.  I love watching the high school games with up and coming prospects as well.  Maybe I am losing it, but I think basketball is healthy and just as good as ever.  Sure there are things that can be improved, but in my viewing-time anyway, I dont think its been better.

[wiley]

imo there's a big cost to the NBA in not letting the players fight (not a lot, but a little).  the step out of the bench area and get suspended for the next playoff game (at least?) is a moronic, spirit crushing rule.....and deflates the fans as well.  This is meant to be high level, top of the line, best-in-the world-clashing-against-each-other-type competition, with high stakes, etc...Instead, David Stern has taken all the gladiator aspects out (he puts that in the adds instead....stupid adds) and replaced it with a fine cup of tea between tall guys...

the fans are meant to be part of the spectacle, as they provide the emotion for the building.  How can you be emotional after you've checked out some dancing girl's amazing boobs (cheerleader), had a t-shirt land in your lap and been told to shout defense by a robotronic sound box....Oh, and with five minutes to go in game 7 everything needs to shut down in order to give out the local hero award.....

Bottom line:  fans understand when they're being robbed of a true experience that really matters....

[Brickowski]

I'm not a nostalgic person. But I know a good game of basketball when I see one, and 80% or more of the games in the NBA simply aren't very entertaining.  The officials take over the game, and even when they get the calls right, it becomes a parade to the foul line.  There are too many time outs, too many interruptions. 

Frankly I enjoyed watching Charles Oakley, John Starks, et. al. Riley played the style that gave him the best chance to win with the personnel he had.  Mike D'Antoni did the same thing in Phoenix. 

If you don't want to be pummeled by Oakley, beat him down the floor. That's what Russell would have done.

In addition to making the officials less visible and less powerful, they should simply allow all zones.  Those defensive 3 second calls destroy the continuity of the game, and zone offense, which relies on ball movement, is more entertaining to watch than a million pick and rolls.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Brick,

Come on man, the NBA is a man's game and college is for kids.

You probably loved watching Psycho T-yler Hansborough play in college, but now that he's in a man's league/world he's got to adjust - and perhaps you might want to think about doing the same (with regards to your expectations).

Yes, you're going to see A LOT of P&R in the NBA these days. Given that it's the toughest play to guard consistently - it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Yes, College can be more "exciting" at times due to the reasons you listed, but I'd rather watch two professionals fight for money than watch two homeless guys fight for a piece of meat (best analogy I could come up with on the spot) any day of the week.

Don't be too bitter with regards to our losses to the the Hawks, we're all p---ed about those losses but no reason to give up on the entire league.

Just my (hopefully harmless) two cents

[Toine43]

I was talking to my friend who doesn't like the NBA and here were his major points:

-the players are all a bunch of overpaid prima donnas
-the players are all a bunch of thugs
-the refs are the worst in sports. several ref-related issues over the past decade including Donaghy and sketchy calls in playoff games put the credibility of the league in question
-regular season games are boring with few exceptions because the players don't give consistent effort
-the game gets incredibly slow at the worst time
-ncaa basketball puts the nba to shame

Now it's easy to take issue with bullet point number 2 and say that its veiled racism, but like it or not all of the points above are how most people perceive the NBA these days. I was actually going to start a thread on this issue, because my question is, how in the world could I counter-argue these points?

[guava_wrench]

Brick,

Come on man, the NBA is a man's game and college is for kids.

You probably loved watching Psycho T-yler Hansborough play in college, but now that he's in a man's league/world he's got to adjust - and perhaps you might want to think about doing the same (with regards to your expectations).

Yes, you're going to see A LOT of P&R in the NBA these days. Given that it's the toughest play to guard consistently - it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Yes, College can be more "exciting" at times due to the reasons you listed, but I'd rather watch two professionals fight for money than watch two homeless guys fight for a piece of meat (best analogy I could come up with on the spot) any day of the week.

Don't be too bitter with regards to our losses to the the Hawks, we're all ****ed about those losses but no reason to give up on the entire league.

Just my (hopefully harmless) two cents

TP.

College basketball is basically glorified amateur night.

[guava_wrench]

I was talking to my friend who doesn't like the NBA and here were his major points:

-the players are all a bunch of overpaid prima donnas
-the players are all a bunch of thugs
-the refs are the worst in sports. several ref-related issues over the past decade including Donaghy and sketchy calls in playoff games put the credibility of the league in question
-regular season games are boring with few exceptions because the players don't give consistent effort
-the game gets incredibly slow at the worst time
-ncaa basketball puts the nba to shame

Now it's easy to take issue with bullet point number 2 and say that its veiled racism, but like it or not all of the points above are how most people perceive the NBA these days. I was actually going to start a thread on this issue, because my question is, how in the world could I counter-argue these points?

How are NBA players thugs compared to Hockey or Football? Please explain.

Worst refs - clearly baseball. Home plate umpires are the most inconsistent in any sport, and a ridiculously large number of plays at second base are missed. Many are missed at first too, but I think it is a considerably lower percentage.

Every sport is filled with prima donnas, so I won't argue there. I mean, is anyone any worse of a prima donna than Jay Cutler? Manny Ramirez? Barry Bonds? TO?

[Rondo_is_better]

"That ballwasher Rick Kamla"

Outstanding. Hahahaha.

[guava_wrench]

imo there's a big cost to the NBA in not letting the players fight (not a lot, but a little).  the step out of the bench area and get suspended for the next playoff game (at least?) is a moronic, spirit crushing rule.....and deflates the fans as well.  This is meant to be high level, top of the line, best-in-the world-clashing-against-each-other-type competition, with high stakes, etc...Instead, David Stern has taken all the gladiator aspects out (he puts that in the adds instead....stupid adds) and replaced it with a fine cup of tea between tall guys...

the fans are meant to be part of the spectacle, as they provide the emotion for the building.  How can you be emotional after you've checked out some dancing girl's amazing boobs (cheerleader), had a t-shirt land in your lap and been told to shout defense by a robotronic sound box....Oh, and with five minutes to go in game 7 everything needs to shut down in order to give out the local hero award.....

Bottom line:  fans understand when they're being robbed of a true experience that really matters....

I like that rule. I am not interested in NHL thuggery coming to the NBA. No thanks.

[jdpapa3]

I must be the only person on the planet that likes Rick Kamla. Everyone I come in contact with can't stand the guy.

Also, I still enjoy most games. I feel like the handcheck rules and more scoring has made it this way. The refs do annoy me in most games, though. I hate when they call ticky tack stuff in crunch time, and I see that crap a lot.

[Brickowski]

Brick,

Come on man, the NBA is a man's game and college is for kids.

Nah, the NBA used to be a man's league, but not any more.  Players like Wendell Ladner and Rickey Mahorn would laugh at today's 19 or 20 year old "superstars."  I can assure you that LeBron or DWade wouldn't be sashaying down the lane against Mahorn.  Mahorn would have beheaded them.  They would have to invent a new classification: "Flagrant 4."

If today's players were men, they wouldn't carry so many guns.  Real men don't need an extra penis.

BTW, when is the NBA going to finally get rid of Stu Jackson?  Isn't he eligible for early retirement or something?  He reached his highest level of incompetence in the mid-1980s when he was Ricky Pitino's recruiting coordinator.

[wiley]

imo there's a big cost to the NBA in not letting the players fight (not a lot, but a little).  the step out of the bench area and get suspended for the next playoff game (at least?) is a moronic, spirit crushing rule.....and deflates the fans as well.  This is meant to be high level, top of the line, best-in-the world-clashing-against-each-other-type competition, with high stakes, etc...Instead, David Stern has taken all the gladiator aspects out (he puts that in the adds instead....stupid adds) and replaced it with a fine cup of tea between tall guys...

the fans are meant to be part of the spectacle, as they provide the emotion for the building.  How can you be emotional after you've checked out some dancing girl's amazing boobs (cheerleader), had a t-shirt land in your lap and been told to shout defense by a robotronic sound box....Oh, and with five minutes to go in game 7 everything needs to shut down in order to give out the local hero award.....

Bottom line:  fans understand when they're being robbed of a true experience that really matters....

I like that rule. I am not interested in NHL thuggery coming to the NBA. No thanks.

I don't think losing that rule would result in an out-of-control situation....It's still a fairly new rule, and the N.B.A. was never like the NHL in terms of fighting. 

[Toine43]

I was talking to my friend who doesn't like the NBA and here were his major points:

-the players are all a bunch of overpaid prima donnas
-the players are all a bunch of thugs
-the refs are the worst in sports. several ref-related issues over the past decade including Donaghy and sketchy calls in playoff games put the credibility of the league in question
-regular season games are boring with few exceptions because the players don't give consistent effort
-the game gets incredibly slow at the worst time
-ncaa basketball puts the nba to shame

Now it's easy to take issue with bullet point number 2 and say that its veiled racism, but like it or not all of the points above are how most people perceive the NBA these days. I was actually going to start a thread on this issue, because my question is, how in the world could I counter-argue these points?

How are NBA players thugs compared to Hockey or Football? Please explain.

Worst refs - clearly baseball. Home plate umpires are the most inconsistent in any sport, and a ridiculously large number of plays at second base are missed. Many are missed at first too, but I think it is a considerably lower percentage.

Every sport is filled with prima donnas, so I won't argue there. I mean, is anyone any worse of a prima donna than Jay Cutler? Manny Ramirez? Barry Bonds? TO?

Yeah I definitely agree that I could argue the prima dona point and the thug point. The reffing I have to say is much worse in basketball than any other sport though. It's horribly inconsistent and most importantly much more subjective than in baseball. There is also star treatment, and the fact that plays are reffed differently in the 4th quarter than in the 1st quarter. I don't get that at all and have never gotten it. A foul is a foul is a foul, and a travel is a travel is a travel, whether it's the final minutes of a game 7 or the 1st quarter of a game in December. You don't get that discrepancy in baseball, and although it's there in football, it's not close to as bad as it is in the NBA.

Also, you didn't address bullets 4-6. These are the ones in particular that I find it awfully hard to argue with.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, I certainly think the game is just as exciting now as it was back in the day (80's, 90's) myself.

And my oldest son (11) absolutely loves and plays the game and can watch it all day. My youngest one likes it, too..but is still finding his way as far as picking a team (he just turned 6).

My oldest even likes Kobe (Gulp) ..so much so that he has tried to trade him to the Celtics in NBA 2k9 before, lol....I guess it's all good as long as he was trying to trade TO the Celtics rather than trade Celtics Players FROM Boston, I suppose.

He has since stopped that nonsense, though .

My biggest gripe with the NBA is that some games the Celtics play, I really believe whole-heartedly that the Refs are out to get us...sometimes it appears more apparent with some refs than others and in some games other than most. The Celtics have the reputation as Bruisers, and we are sometimes treated as such with the refs I think.

My thing is: Hey if someone is complaining about the Celtics style of play, tell them to hit the weight room, lol..get big like Perk. Just ignore KG, Sheed and Pierces' trash talking. shut it out .

I also think that some fans were turned away after the 2004 brawl with Artest..yes that was a sad time, but Artest has lived that down and he has been a wiser person since then. I certainly forgive the man.

The Arenas thing is I am sure another turn-off, but it shouldn't take away from the NBA. And I think the NBA will recover from it.

And Brick you are right about Bosh - the man is talented (offensively) but I can't see folks' interest in the man beyond that. In fairness to him, though - he is young and I suppose that if he went to a different team he could be trained to be a Defensive Stopper..but that is an idea for a different thread I guess.

[Brickowski]

You can't allow fighting in the NBA. In hockey, guys wear helmets and can't get much leverage to throw hard punches while on skates.
The Kermit Wahington-Rudy Tomjanovich incident illustrates how damaging a single punch can be.