The Cs should have signed Powe

[winsomme]

  What does contribute mean for Powe this year? 3 minutes a game in the playoffs? If Cleveland had Wallace and Davis coming off the bench they probably would have passed on Powe as well.

also, as far as CLE is concerned, they have Varejao and Ilgauskas so it's not like they were without options in their frontcourt.

and BOS didn't ultimately pass on Leon. They offered him a contract.

The overall point here being that the contract that Leon signed is not prohibitive...

So, again the plan to not offer him a contract right out of the gate, instead telling him that they would revisit him once he showed he could play, only to later decide they would offer him a contract was really the problem and didn't make much sense.

  It probably made sense that they'd try and keep a player away from the Cavs even though they don't expect him to play for us. I'd consider Hickson more of a backup than Varejao since he only plays about 16 minutes a game.

If their expectation was that he was not going to be able to contribute this season then why would they be concerned about keeping him away from the Cavs? to answer my own question: in the case that he did end up being able to contribute....which is the same reason the Cs should have signed him in the first place...

but either way, the contract he signed was not prohibitive...for the Cavs or the Cs...

  Because, while you refuse to admit it, KP/KG/RW/BBD is a much better front line than Shaq/Z/Varejao/Hickson.

which question are you answering here? You're suggesting that they didn't expect Leon to contribute this season because he was coming back from a serious injury (a la your 50%, 75% post)...

so why would the Cs worry about Leon being able to contribute on the Cavs given his health situation?

whether our front line is better than theirs is irrelevant (although I don't remember saying that theirs is better than ours). and it's especially irrelevant given the contract that Leon signed...which, again, would not have been prohibitive for either team.

  Of course it's not irrelevant. Powe at 75% might be able to make a decent contribution for Cleveland while Powe at 75% wouldn't be able to pry any minutes from Sheed or Davis on the Celts. It's a better risk for Cleveland because they're more likely to reap (any) rewards than we would be.

What exactly is the risk?

  Spending money and a roster spot on a player who won't be able to contribute to the team at all.

Bball, the contract he signed was the protection against that eventuality...

  How? What if the choice for the 15th spot was between Lester and Leon? If Hudson worked out we'd have a backup pg where we now have a committee of non-pgs manning the spot. If Leon works out he either isn't even in the rotation or he takes Baby out of the rotation. We don't have much to gain unless he makes a tremendous recovery if we have anything to gain at all.

Did you actually imagine the Lester Hudson was going to play this season? Come on...

When Baby and Leon were on this team together, they both made contributions based on match up. You're also discounting their value as assets for depth or trade.

  Maybe you should impart your expertise on Ainge and Chris Wallace, who probably disagree with your claim that there was no way Lester would ever play this year. But I'm equally skeptical about Powe coming back. Let me know when he looks good enough to beat out Sheed and Baby for minutes.

  And, by the way, even if Powe comes back and plays you can't trade anyone else because of it this year because you can't have a great expectation that he'll be healthy for the entire season/playoffs.

  This is an awfully long thread about someone who'd be unlikely to be more than a 10th or 11th man on the team.

Bball, DA made his choice between Hudson and Leon when he offered Leon a contract.

as for trade situations, if Leon came back and played you could certainly feel better about trading one of the current rosters players than you do now, right? Isn't having a 75% Leon better than having nobody if you wanted to trade Scals, Baby, or Shelden?

Plus, you're ignoring the other point spence made about Leon adding depth. I mean Leon doesn't have to beat out a player if they are on the shelf...

[BballTim]

  What does contribute mean for Powe this year? 3 minutes a game in the playoffs? If Cleveland had Wallace and Davis coming off the bench they probably would have passed on Powe as well.

also, as far as CLE is concerned, they have Varejao and Ilgauskas so it's not like they were without options in their frontcourt.

and BOS didn't ultimately pass on Leon. They offered him a contract.

The overall point here being that the contract that Leon signed is not prohibitive...

So, again the plan to not offer him a contract right out of the gate, instead telling him that they would revisit him once he showed he could play, only to later decide they would offer him a contract was really the problem and didn't make much sense.

  It probably made sense that they'd try and keep a player away from the Cavs even though they don't expect him to play for us. I'd consider Hickson more of a backup than Varejao since he only plays about 16 minutes a game.

If their expectation was that he was not going to be able to contribute this season then why would they be concerned about keeping him away from the Cavs? to answer my own question: in the case that he did end up being able to contribute....which is the same reason the Cs should have signed him in the first place...

but either way, the contract he signed was not prohibitive...for the Cavs or the Cs...

  Because, while you refuse to admit it, KP/KG/RW/BBD is a much better front line than Shaq/Z/Varejao/Hickson.

which question are you answering here? You're suggesting that they didn't expect Leon to contribute this season because he was coming back from a serious injury (a la your 50%, 75% post)...

so why would the Cs worry about Leon being able to contribute on the Cavs given his health situation?

whether our front line is better than theirs is irrelevant (although I don't remember saying that theirs is better than ours). and it's especially irrelevant given the contract that Leon signed...which, again, would not have been prohibitive for either team.

  Of course it's not irrelevant. Powe at 75% might be able to make a decent contribution for Cleveland while Powe at 75% wouldn't be able to pry any minutes from Sheed or Davis on the Celts. It's a better risk for Cleveland because they're more likely to reap (any) rewards than we would be.

What exactly is the risk?

  Spending money and a roster spot on a player who won't be able to contribute to the team at all.

Bball, the contract he signed was the protection against that eventuality...

  How? What if the choice for the 15th spot was between Lester and Leon? If Hudson worked out we'd have a backup pg where we now have a committee of non-pgs manning the spot. If Leon works out he either isn't even in the rotation or he takes Baby out of the rotation. We don't have much to gain unless he makes a tremendous recovery if we have anything to gain at all.

Did you actually imagine the Lester Hudson was going to play this season? Come on...

When Baby and Leon were on this team together, they both made contributions based on match up. You're also discounting their value as assets for depth or trade.

  Maybe you should impart your expertise on Ainge and Chris Wallace, who probably disagree with your claim that there was no way Lester would ever play this year. But I'm equally skeptical about Powe coming back. Let me know when he looks good enough to beat out Sheed and Baby for minutes.

  And, by the way, even if Powe comes back and plays you can't trade anyone else because of it this year because you can't have a great expectation that he'll be healthy for the entire season/playoffs.

  This is an awfully long thread about someone who'd be unlikely to be more than a 10th or 11th man on the team.

Bball, DA made his choice between Hudson and Leon when he offered Leon a contract.

as for trade situations, if Leon came back and played you could certainly feel better about trading one of the current rosters players than you do now, right? Isn't having a 75% Leon better than having nobody if you wanted to trade Scals, Baby, or Shelden?

Plus, you're ignoring the other point spence made about Leon adding depth. I mean Leon doesn't have to beat out a player if they are on the shelf...

  Again, until Leon's playing well enough to contribute to our playoff run this conversation is moot. I don't think it's the foregone conclusion you do.

[ssspence]

  What does contribute mean for Powe this year? 3 minutes a game in the playoffs? If Cleveland had Wallace and Davis coming off the bench they probably would have passed on Powe as well.

also, as far as CLE is concerned, they have Varejao and Ilgauskas so it's not like they were without options in their frontcourt.

and BOS didn't ultimately pass on Leon. They offered him a contract.

The overall point here being that the contract that Leon signed is not prohibitive...

So, again the plan to not offer him a contract right out of the gate, instead telling him that they would revisit him once he showed he could play, only to later decide they would offer him a contract was really the problem and didn't make much sense.

  It probably made sense that they'd try and keep a player away from the Cavs even though they don't expect him to play for us. I'd consider Hickson more of a backup than Varejao since he only plays about 16 minutes a game.

If their expectation was that he was not going to be able to contribute this season then why would they be concerned about keeping him away from the Cavs? to answer my own question: in the case that he did end up being able to contribute....which is the same reason the Cs should have signed him in the first place...

but either way, the contract he signed was not prohibitive...for the Cavs or the Cs...

  Because, while you refuse to admit it, KP/KG/RW/BBD is a much better front line than Shaq/Z/Varejao/Hickson.

which question are you answering here? You're suggesting that they didn't expect Leon to contribute this season because he was coming back from a serious injury (a la your 50%, 75% post)...

so why would the Cs worry about Leon being able to contribute on the Cavs given his health situation?

whether our front line is better than theirs is irrelevant (although I don't remember saying that theirs is better than ours). and it's especially irrelevant given the contract that Leon signed...which, again, would not have been prohibitive for either team.

  Of course it's not irrelevant. Powe at 75% might be able to make a decent contribution for Cleveland while Powe at 75% wouldn't be able to pry any minutes from Sheed or Davis on the Celts. It's a better risk for Cleveland because they're more likely to reap (any) rewards than we would be.

What exactly is the risk?

  Spending money and a roster spot on a player who won't be able to contribute to the team at all.

Bball, the contract he signed was the protection against that eventuality...

  How? What if the choice for the 15th spot was between Lester and Leon? If Hudson worked out we'd have a backup pg where we now have a committee of non-pgs manning the spot. If Leon works out he either isn't even in the rotation or he takes Baby out of the rotation. We don't have much to gain unless he makes a tremendous recovery if we have anything to gain at all.

Did you actually imagine the Lester Hudson was going to play this season? Come on...

When Baby and Leon were on this team together, they both made contributions based on match up. You're also discounting their value as assets for depth or trade.

  Maybe you should impart your expertise on Ainge and Chris Wallace, who probably disagree with your claim that there was no way Lester would ever play this year. But I'm equally skeptical about Powe coming back. Let me know when he looks good enough to beat out Sheed and Baby for minutes.

  And, by the way, even if Powe comes back and plays you can't trade anyone else because of it this year because you can't have a great expectation that he'll be healthy for the entire season/playoffs.

  This is an awfully long thread about someone who'd be unlikely to be more than a 10th or 11th man on the team.

I was saying they could be traded at any point thru their contract (i.e. this summer). Anyway, I agree -- let's put it to bed.

[winsomme]

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/leon_powe_eager_to_play_as_he.html

[Drucci]

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/leon_powe_eager_to_play_as_he.html

Good news. I'm really glad for Leon, and I hope his recovery will be right on time.

However, it's hard enough to see Leon on the Cavs bench so it will be even worse to see him play against us or in a Cavaliers uniform. I cheer for the guy and wish him the best, but I just can't accept the fact that he has signed with Cleveland. Talk about mixed feelings.

[scoop]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

[winsomme]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

This could really help right now when we are looking to make another deal for wing-depth. Having Leon close to returning could make you feel better about including Shelden, for instance, in any such deal....

Danny made it clear that the Cs would revisit Leon only after he showed he could play...that was the misplay, and it happened well before the whole CLE scenario.

[BballTim]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

  It makes at least as much sense to sign someone who could turn out to be the only true backup pg as it does to sign someone to try and get healthy enough to be your 5th or 6th big.

[BballTim]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

[winsomme]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

work ethic is a controllable element and Leon's got it. and the luck element is factored into the contract he signed.

[BballTim]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

work ethic is a controllable element and Leon's got it. and the luck element is factored into the contract he signed.

  Yes, work ethic is controllable. The health of his knee this year really isn't. It's not like, no matter what the injury, if he works hard enough he'll be back in no time. It's extremely unlikely he'll be back to full speed this year no matter how hard he works, how good a guy he is, or how much we liked having him on the Celts in the past.

[winsomme]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

work ethic is a controllable element and Leon's got it. and the luck element is factored into the contract he signed.

  Yes, work ethic is controllable. The health of his knee this year really isn't. It's not like, no matter what the injury, if he works hard enough he'll be back in no time. It's extremely unlikely he'll be back to full speed this year no matter how hard he works, how good a guy he is, or how much we liked having him on the Celts in the past.

Like i said, the potential snags in his return are factored into the contract he signed.

the reason I mentioned work ethic is because it does affect the likelihood of his return...if he can't return till next year, he's still a trade chip or easily releasable...

[PLamb]

Just finished reading through this thread

I think sometimes people forget just how important it is to have enough players available at each position to practice and scrimmage against in order to work on things and get teams better

End of bench players are very important sometimes for how they make the starters better by having to play against them in practice

By loading up players in any one or two positions at the expense of another position could lead to problems for practicing and scrimmaging if someone gets hurt in the area a team could be short on players simply because the team decided to carry a player through injury for an entire year in a position area they were already deep in

[BballTim]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

work ethic is a controllable element and Leon's got it. and the luck element is factored into the contract he signed.

  Yes, work ethic is controllable. The health of his knee this year really isn't. It's not like, no matter what the injury, if he works hard enough he'll be back in no time. It's extremely unlikely he'll be back to full speed this year no matter how hard he works, how good a guy he is, or how much we liked having him on the Celts in the past.

Like i said, the potential snags in his return are factored into the contract he signed.

  Just like the potential snags in his return are factored into the fact that the Celts (and 28 or so other teams) didn't offer him a contract when he was available for the minimum. You need to keep things in perspective. Sheed misses 1-2 games with a sore foot and you're calling it a stress fracture. But when Leon's trying to come back from a major knee injury to a knee that he's injured multiple times in the past you refuse to believe that he won't adhere to the most optimistic rehab schedules.

[winsomme]

In other words, Danny broached the idea of a two-year deal, Leon said he'd take a deal for one year, and the Celtics moved on.  It sounds like both sides could have put a little more effort into this.

That's not what happened. Only after Powe having a verbal agreement to Cleveland, Danny made him the same offer he had accepted - the 2 years non-guaranteed deal.

Obviously, then it was too late, Powe did the right think.

It was a miscalculation by Ainge. Signing Powe would make more sense than signing Hudson. If you needed the roster spot later, you could always release him at no cost.

yep. definite misplay on Danny's part. Can't really explain why, though. Leon was so good for us, has a proven work ethic to come back from his injury, and could have come back at a really reasonable number.

  It takes more than work ethic to come back from injury. It takes a lot of time and a lot of luck. Players have trouble coming back from his injury in a year when it's the first injury to that knee, not the 2nd or 3rd.

work ethic is a controllable element and Leon's got it. and the luck element is factored into the contract he signed.

  Yes, work ethic is controllable. The health of his knee this year really isn't. It's not like, no matter what the injury, if he works hard enough he'll be back in no time. It's extremely unlikely he'll be back to full speed this year no matter how hard he works, how good a guy he is, or how much we liked having him on the Celts in the past.

Like i said, the potential snags in his return are factored into the contract he signed.

  Just like the potential snags in his return are factored into the fact that the Celts (and 28 or so other teams) didn't offer him a contract when he was available for the minimum. You need to keep things in perspective. Sheed misses 1-2 games with a sore foot and you're calling it a stress fracture. But when Leon's trying to come back from a major knee injury to a knee that he's injured multiple times in the past you refuse to believe that he won't adhere to the most optimistic rehab schedules.

the potential for snags were not factored in, that's my point...they simply miscalculated...

by the by, the Celtics did offer Leon a contact...just too late.

as for Sheed, I still haven't heard a diagnosis...so yeah I'm still concerned about a stress reaction...not sure what that has to do with this topic, though.