2nd Unit Needs Pushy PG

[Brickowski]

While I'm not sure Hudson can be the guy, it's pretty ovious that the second unit needs a real point guard. Right now it looks kind of like a pick up game at the Y. Who ever gets the ball brings it up. I think the second unit wouldn't be half bad with someone running it.

You are preaching to the choir. 

[More Banners]

To be good enough to keep Eddie House off the floor, a backup PG would have to be able to do two essential PG things, things that Eddie cannot do:  1) reliably get the ball over half court, and 2) play reasonable, or at least average, on-ball defense.  Playmaking, any kind of dribble penetration, even against merely average defense, would seal the deal.  I think quite a few players out there- unsigned vets, Euroleaguers, Hudson(?)- could do that.

I think you are underestimating the value House brings to this team, both on the court, and through intangibles.  His shooting is very important to the team's offense, and he is a passable defender, who works his butt off. 

Ultimately, I would be fine if they found someone better to replace him, but they need to do more than just handle the ball and defend a little.  They need to be able to create offense, and also finish.  Guys like that are not a dime a dozen in the NBA.

Got to respectfully disagree here.  I think the point being overlooked is that House is being misused as a PG.  Let's keep in mind that his deficiencies in bringing the ball over half court are against the other team's second unit...so, against second-tier players, he can't perform the essential, basic function of a PG.  Consequently, he can't create off the dribble, either.  He is, in short, not a PG, offensively, and we know that.

But we accept this limitation to gain his shooting, which is mostly limited, or most effective, when he spots up or sometimes comes off solid picks, like a 2 guard.  His shooting is his strength, and he is surely a great shooter, with a very, very quick release.  But he's way, way too short to guard 2's who can shoot over him, and not quick enough laterally to keep 1's or 2's in front of him.  He is pretty good with his rotations, so he's usually in position, but overall, I think he is a below average defender.  How hard he works isn't really relevant, IMHO.  While certainly not a dime a dozen, I think there would be competent options for a backup PG, 12-15 mpg, available for a minimum contract.  Eventually, I think we'll see Lue get a shot at this.  A midseason trade seems to be a regular thing for Danny...

I think playing him causes more problems than it solves (is scoring our problem?), and an average backup PG would be an upgrade, meaning getting over halfcourt, average defense, average shooting range, etc.(I loved the comment that the second unit looks like a YMCA pickup game).

It would also move Daniels back to the wing, where he would have a clearer role, instead of being a general utility player (though he fills it well).

On balance, then, he should be getting situational role-player minutes, spot minutes, and not playing regular rotation minutes unless there is an injury.

[More Banners]

[
I think you are underestimating the value House brings to this team, both on the court, and through intangibles. 

Agree on this point:  House does play with passion and emotion, which the team does need, and hopefully that sort of thing catches on and other's pick up the intensity.  It doesn't necessarily look like that has been the case as often as I would prefer...but hopefully Doc is right and that will change.

[wiley]

House is a major asset to this team.  Last year he set the Celtics all-time record for 3-point percentage.  Remember how much we loved him during that stretch when Marbury was finding him for open 3's, and he was draining them?

Also, this year a number of times people have been concerned about the level of energy and intensity on this team.  Let's not underestimate those intangibles!!

[ManUp]

To be good enough to keep Eddie House off the floor, a backup PG would have to be able to do two essential PG things, things that Eddie cannot do:  1) reliably get the ball over half court, and 2) play reasonable, or at least average, on-ball defense.  Playmaking, any kind of dribble penetration, even against merely average defense, would seal the deal.  I think quite a few players out there- unsigned vets, Euroleaguers, Hudson(?)- could do that.

I think you are underestimating the value House brings to this team, both on the court, and through intangibles.  His shooting is very important to the team's offense, and he is a passable defender, who works his butt off. 

Ultimately, I would be fine if they found someone better to replace him, but they need to do more than just handle the ball and defend a little.  They need to be able to create offense, and also finish.  Guys like that are not a dime a dozen in the NBA.

Yes his shooting is really important to the team, but what do you consider passable defensively? I don't doubt House's effort because he works his ass off, but he's simply not very good. He'll run shooters off the line, take a charge every so often, and get the occasional steal, but when challenged by an aggressive player he's cooked 9 times out of 10. When he's not shooting well he doesn't do anything well enough to justify him being on the floor. I think a 35-37% 3point shooter who can defend and  run the sets quicker would be just as affective as House.

[PosImpos]

Remember how much we loved him during that stretch when Marbury was finding him for open 3's, and he was draining them?

To me, that's the point.  Eddie looked at his best last year when we had a REAL PG to run the offense on the second unit and get him open looks. 

It's a shame that Marbury lost all of his marbles this summer, because our second unit could really use somebody with his abilities - but not his mental / emotional issues - right now.

I doubt Lester Hudson can step in right now and be that player; he's a rookie and was more a SG in college than a PG.  But our second unit will be SO much better if we can find a scenario in which we acquire a true PG for the second unit so Eddie can play SG.

[Chris]

Got to respectfully disagree here.  I think the point being overlooked is that House is being misused as a PG.  Let's keep in mind that his deficiencies in bringing the ball over half court are against the other team's second unit...so, against second-tier players, he can't perform the essential, basic function of a PG.  Consequently, he can't create off the dribble, either.  He is, in short, not a PG, offensively, and we know that.

I agree with this.  But to me, the solution is not by bringing in an inferior player, just because he is a better ball handler.

To me, the solution is what the C's have done spuratically this season, to much success.  Take the ball out of House' hands, and let Pierce, Allen, Daniels, and Rondo run the offense.  When they have done it, it has been successful.  Unfortunately, they still go back to having House handle the ball way too often.

[Fafnir]

To me, that's the point.  Eddie looked at his best last year when we had a REAL PG to run the offense on the second unit and get him open looks. 

It's a shame that Marbury lost all of his marbles this summer, because our second unit could really use somebody with his abilities - but not his mental / emotional issues - right now.

Too bad the C's got their buts kicked whenever they used that unit against a team with any size at all in their backcourt. House has to play PG because he cannot guard any legit NBA 2 guard.

Unless we're playing against a midget lineup House absolutely has to play the 1, otherwise our defense will unravel. Not to mention it'd add to our rebounding woes.

[Fafnir]

Got to respectfully disagree here.  I think the point being overlooked is that House is being misused as a PG.  Let's keep in mind that his deficiencies in bringing the ball over half court are against the other team's second unit...so, against second-tier players, he can't perform the essential, basic function of a PG.  Consequently, he can't create off the dribble, either.  He is, in short, not a PG, offensively, and we know that.

I agree with this.  But to me, the solution is not by bringing in an inferior player, just because he is a better ball handler.

To me, the solution is what the C's have done spuratically this season, to much success.  Take the ball out of House' hands, and let Pierce, Allen, Daniels, and Rondo run the offense.  When they have done it, it has been successful.  Unfortunately, they still go back to having House handle the ball way too often.

Honestly I think House's ball handling woes are overstated. The real problem with him in the lineup is that too often we stop penetrating. I was hoping Daniels could provide that off the bench, but he hasn't done so consistently.

[Chris]

Got to respectfully disagree here.  I think the point being overlooked is that House is being misused as a PG.  Let's keep in mind that his deficiencies in bringing the ball over half court are against the other team's second unit...so, against second-tier players, he can't perform the essential, basic function of a PG.  Consequently, he can't create off the dribble, either.  He is, in short, not a PG, offensively, and we know that.

I agree with this.  But to me, the solution is not by bringing in an inferior player, just because he is a better ball handler.

To me, the solution is what the C's have done spuratically this season, to much success.  Take the ball out of House' hands, and let Pierce, Allen, Daniels, and Rondo run the offense.  When they have done it, it has been successful.  Unfortunately, they still go back to having House handle the ball way too often.

Honestly I think House's ball handling woes are overstated. The real problem with him in the lineup is that too often we stop penetrating. I was hoping Daniels could provide that off the bench, but he hasn't done so consistently.

I agree completely.  Daniels has really disapointed me with his lack of aggression offensively.  I hope he is still just trying to find his role, but he has me at times almost wishing Tony Allen could come in for a few minutes...and THAT's scary.

[More Banners]

Nice to see the moderators are in agreement.

Perhaps the reason there isn't as much penetration with House on the floor is...he lacks the handle to execute dribble penetration, unlike the player he replaces (Ray or RR)?  His lack of guard-like handle against second-tier players contributes significantly to lack of penetration on the second unit, so it really is about his lack of handle.  Thanks for pointing out another way that House hurts us on the floor.

(sidebar:  I think getting Sheed inside more would help, using an inside-out look instead of a drive-dish game.  I think Sheed can pass well from the post).

I think the reason for this focus on House in this thread is that if a competent backup PG appeared, he'd likely be the guy on the bench, for all of the aforementioned reasons.  I argue we'd be a better team in that instance.

I think Daniels will be fine either way, but as designated wing backup, I think we'd get more than having him be a sometimes playmaker, sometimes scorer.  It might be easier for him to find his role if he had a limited number of them.

[KJ33]

13 minutes a game.  Man, people really are overanalyzing.  Talking about the "2nd unit" as if it is an interchangeable and equal to the "1st unit" in terms of minutes.  Many teams don't even play a whole 2nd unit.  I think everyone is spoiled having an elite point guard, and the inevitable drop off in play when he is out of the game.  Most teams would love to have Rondo, and then anybody else.

Can't we just be happy we have Rondo, and understand games are usually not won or lost during the 13 out of 48 minutes of the game when he is out?  Why is it all anaylsis is based on comparing the Celtics to the uberteam, not just the rest of the league?  How many teams have a dynamic 1st point, let alone 2nd point?

In the games that really require Rondo's skills, don't we think he is capable of playing even 42 minutes, meaning only 6 minutes without him on the floor?  This topic is 3 years old now, and is no more relevant now than it was then.  There is 1 team in the league with a better record right now, would you rather have this traditional 2nd point and have the 4th best record?

[nesnfsn]

Most teams are not the Celtics, Lakers, Magic or Cavaliers. QUITE TRUE.

However, we do need someone as a floor general at all times, not just when our first string PG, Rondo, is in. House is not that. He does not have those abilities nor talent (much more than I do obviously, but he does not rise to that level for the NBA).

It is a false comparison to argue that we are comparing our team to some super team, or to argue that we should be happy with Rajon Rondo for 36 minutes a game. I am ecstatic with Rajon, despite some of his idiosyncracries. That does not mean that I am always pleased with Doc's insistence on playing House at the PG with the second unit (Doc's decision to insert all substitutions as a unit, does not need to be that way). But, if we are going to have a "second unit", then we need a PG to run the offense on that unit.

Having Pierce, Ray Allen or Daniels walk the ball up is not the answer as that takes 10-12 seconds off of the 24 second clock to get to the 3 pt. arc, then another 4-8 seconds to start the offense. Noone is moving, the offense stalls, as there is no PG (like Rondo with the starters) barking out the plays, creating motion and rotation. We need a commander on the floor. That is why I had suggested that we see what Hudson can do if he is given some gametime experience. Its the second unit. He can't be worse than House in that role. And should he be worse, then experiment over, and we get a PG.

[Fafnir]

That is why I had suggested that we see what Hudson can do if he is given some gametime experience. Its the second unit. He can't be worse than House in that role. And should he be worse, then experiment over, and we get a PG

I'm fully confident that if Doc thought Hudson had any chance of being all of what you want out of a PG, he'd be playing. Doc has an excellent track record of developing young talent.

But lets face it, you can't expect such a low draft pick to backup the point of a championship caliber team. Furthermore, games right now matter. Nor is Eddie "killing" this team, his on/off court numbers say he has a very positive effect on the offense. Nor is his turnover right something to worry about. Rather his defense and the above stated tendency to let our second unit just shoot threes makes him just average.

There is nothing wrong with having an average backup play 12-15 minutes a game for your team!

[kevbo]

This topic is 3 years old now, and is no more relevant now than it was then.  There is 1 team in the league with a better record right now, would you rather have this traditional 2nd point and have the 4th best record?

I think as long as Doc runs House out there as a PG, even if Marquis handles the ball more, this topic will continue to persist. House can't handle the ball well enough to run point, but isn't tall enough to simply slot over as a SG. So if you put a traditional point guard in there with House, the Cs leave themselves open to post-ups from bigger guards.

As much as I love House, I'm with the OP in the need for a pushy guard. I'm not sure Hudson is the answer, but at least he's an in-house option. Also agree with Mods, Sheed always needs to be reminded to stay in the paint...

Anyway, if the C's go out of house for a PG, I hope they make a run somehow either at Felton before the deadline or in the off-season. Probably a pipe-dream. But, Charlotte's got both Augustin and Acie Law now, a high pay-roll, and Felton's on a 1-year contract right I think. I think Felton would be an incredible back-up for Rondo, but I also truly don't think he's good enough to be the starting PG on a championship level team.

Except of course the 2005 Heels.