Pierce is also snubbed for top tier b-ball IQ

[Boris Badenov]

How are Chauncey Billups and Kevin Garnett not on this list? Or Drew Gooden?

OK, j/k about Gooden. But the other two definitely seem to outclass most of the players on that list. I guess what "IQ" means is subjective, but to me it has both an offensive and defensive component, and consists of (a) getting the greatest performance out of your athletic ability, and (b) making your team better than the sum of its parts.

[Roy Hobbs]

How are Chauncey Billups and Kevin Garnett not on this list? Or Drew Gooden?

OK, j/k about Gooden. But the other two definitely seem to outclass most of the players on that list. I guess what "IQ" means is subjective, but to me it has both an offensive and defensive component, and consists of (a) getting the greatest performance out of your athletic ability, and (b) making your team better than the sum of its parts.

I'd say the Big Fundamental belongs on that list, too.  And of course, Scal.

[Truck Lewis]

when i think bball iq i think of timmy duncan and shane battier.  Or even players with no athelitcism like bruce bowen.

[Boris Badenov]

How are Chauncey Billups and Kevin Garnett not on this list? Or Drew Gooden?

OK, j/k about Gooden. But the other two definitely seem to outclass most of the players on that list. I guess what "IQ" means is subjective, but to me it has both an offensive and defensive component, and consists of (a) getting the greatest performance out of your athletic ability, and (b) making your team better than the sum of its parts.

I'd say the Big Fundamental belongs on that list, too.  And of course, Scal.

I'd agree, if Duncan had been playing for the Celtics for the last 12 years.

Kidding again. I overlooked him.

[Bahku]

I don't necessarily agree with those players who were picked, but I also wouldn't rank Pierce at the top of the league in basketball IQ.  That's not to suggest he's poor in that area, but I don't think he's elite, either.  He takes a lot of bad shots, and is prone at times to going into iso-mode. I think he's a player that does great things, but doesn't always make the smartest decision possible.

(Of course, I wouldn't put Kobe or Carmelo in the "elite BBIQ" category, either.)

100% agree. How many hundreds of times did PP try and dribble behind his back or through his legs in between 2 defenders only to turn the ball over yet again? PP is clutch. PP is tough. PP is a very very good player. PP is not however a superstar like a Bird or Magic or Jordan. As sad as it is to say I would trade him straight across without thinking twice for Kobe or Lebron or Wade. I might even straight up for Carmelo due to him being young and PP being about done. That isn't to say that I don't appreciate what PP has done, but he isn't in the same tier as anyone on that list except for Carmelo, who also does not belong.

I usually agree with you, EJ, but this is one time I have to take exception, respectfully. While Kobe and LeBron may be what's considered "elite" players, they will never be the complete team player that Paul Pierce is, nor buy into the same type of Ubuntu concept ... their arrogance and egos are just too big, and I'd rather have a cohesive unit like the C's than a superstar any day.

Definitely pains me to say Kobe, but his ability to completely take over games offensively is quite a bit higher than PP's. I do agree he isn't a complete or team player though.

Lebron I think is WAY too early to tell, and his sheer ability to dominate at every level is getting more and more amazing every year. He arguably has the ability to be the best ever, and even though he might not be the greatest team player, he is definitely a complete PLAYER.

As far as PP being a great teammate, there were a lot of examples of him not being the best teammate for a lot of the bad years as well. It's only been with the big 3 that he really bought into that IMO.

It certainly took him some time to mature ... I think getting the Finals MVP took a lot of the pressure off, and he's not trying to prove anything anymore, except getting his team to another championship. But his early years he was being pushed to be more selfish and carry the team, so I think he was trying to bear the weight of the majority of scoring, and the responsibilities that come with winning and losing. I don't think anyone is the best team player in their first couple of years, but Paul grew into that much earlier than most, and Kobe and LeBron still haven't reached that point. But I know where you're coming from, and of the three "elite" players, D-Wade is the most rounded, and I wouldn't mind seeing him in green anytime. (TP)

[Steve Weinman]

I don't necessarily agree with those players who were picked, but I also wouldn't rank Pierce at the top of the league in basketball IQ.  That's not to suggest he's poor in that area, but I don't think he's elite, either.  He takes a lot of bad shots, and is prone at times to going into iso-mode. I think he's a player that does great things, but doesn't always make the smartest decision possible.

(Of course, I wouldn't put Kobe or Carmelo in the "elite BBIQ" category, either.)

100% agree. How many hundreds of times did PP try and dribble behind his back or through his legs in between 2 defenders only to turn the ball over yet again? PP is clutch. PP is tough. PP is a very very good player. PP is not however a superstar like a Bird or Magic or Jordan. As sad as it is to say I would trade him straight across without thinking twice for Kobe or Lebron or Wade. I might even straight up for Carmelo due to him being young and PP being about done. That isn't to say that I don't appreciate what PP has done, but he isn't in the same tier as anyone on that list except for Carmelo, who also does not belong.

I usually agree with you, EJ, but this is one time I have to take exception, respectfully. While Kobe and LeBron may be what's considered "elite" players, they will never be the complete team player that Paul Pierce is, nor buy into the same type of Ubuntu concept ... their arrogance and egos are just too big, and I'd rather have a cohesive unit like the C's than a superstar any day.

Definitely pains me to say Kobe, but his ability to completely take over games offensively is quite a bit higher than PP's. I do agree he isn't a complete or team player though.

Lebron I think is WAY too early to tell, and his sheer ability to dominate at every level is getting more and more amazing every year. He arguably has the ability to be the best ever, and even though he might not be the greatest team player, he is definitely a complete PLAYER.

As far as PP being a great teammate, there were a lot of examples of him not being the best teammate for a lot of the bad years as well. It's only been with the big 3 that he really bought into that IMO.

It certainly took him some time to mature ... I think getting the Finals MVP took a lot of the pressure off, and he's not trying to prove anything anymore, except getting his team to another championship. But his early years he was being pushed to be more selfish and carry the team, so I think he was trying to bear the weight of the majority of scoring, and the responsibilities that come with winning and losing. I don't think anyone is the best team player in their first couple of years, but Paul grew into that much earlier than most, and Kobe and LeBron still haven't reached that point. But I know where you're coming from, and of the three "elite" players, D-Wade is the most rounded, and I wouldn't mind seeing him in green anytime. (TP)

I love Pierce, and he'll be a favorite of mine forever because he's ours, and because I'm biased...but I don't get it, Bahku - what "point" is this that Paul has reached that Kobe hasn't?

-sw

[Bahku]

I don't necessarily agree with those players who were picked, but I also wouldn't rank Pierce at the top of the league in basketball IQ.  That's not to suggest he's poor in that area, but I don't think he's elite, either.  He takes a lot of bad shots, and is prone at times to going into iso-mode. I think he's a player that does great things, but doesn't always make the smartest decision possible.

(Of course, I wouldn't put Kobe or Carmelo in the "elite BBIQ" category, either.)

100% agree. How many hundreds of times did PP try and dribble behind his back or through his legs in between 2 defenders only to turn the ball over yet again? PP is clutch. PP is tough. PP is a very very good player. PP is not however a superstar like a Bird or Magic or Jordan. As sad as it is to say I would trade him straight across without thinking twice for Kobe or Lebron or Wade. I might even straight up for Carmelo due to him being young and PP being about done. That isn't to say that I don't appreciate what PP has done, but he isn't in the same tier as anyone on that list except for Carmelo, who also does not belong.

I usually agree with you, EJ, but this is one time I have to take exception, respectfully. While Kobe and LeBron may be what's considered "elite" players, they will never be the complete team player that Paul Pierce is, nor buy into the same type of Ubuntu concept ... their arrogance and egos are just too big, and I'd rather have a cohesive unit like the C's than a superstar any day.

Definitely pains me to say Kobe, but his ability to completely take over games offensively is quite a bit higher than PP's. I do agree he isn't a complete or team player though.

Lebron I think is WAY too early to tell, and his sheer ability to dominate at every level is getting more and more amazing every year. He arguably has the ability to be the best ever, and even though he might not be the greatest team player, he is definitely a complete PLAYER.

As far as PP being a great teammate, there were a lot of examples of him not being the best teammate for a lot of the bad years as well. It's only been with the big 3 that he really bought into that IMO.

It certainly took him some time to mature ... I think getting the Finals MVP took a lot of the pressure off, and he's not trying to prove anything anymore, except getting his team to another championship. But his early years he was being pushed to be more selfish and carry the team, so I think he was trying to bear the weight of the majority of scoring, and the responsibilities that come with winning and losing. I don't think anyone is the best team player in their first couple of years, but Paul grew into that much earlier than most, and Kobe and LeBron still haven't reached that point. But I know where you're coming from, and of the three "elite" players, D-Wade is the most rounded, and I wouldn't mind seeing him in green anytime. (TP)

I love Pierce, and he'll be a favorite of mine forever because he's ours, and because I'm biased...but I don't get it, Bahku - what "point" is this that Paul has reached that Kobe hasn't?

-sw

The point of being an unselfish player ... of putting the team before himself and looking for scoring opportunities for his team-mates first, himself second ... in my opinion Kobe will never become the complete team player that Paul is, on either end of the floor.

[Kiorrik]

The point of being an unselfish player ... of putting the team before himself and looking for scoring opportunities for his team-mates first, himself second ... in my opinion Kobe will never become the complete team player that Paul is, on either end of the floor.

I think he has, tbh.

Besides, it's easy to say "team first" if you've got KG, Ray, Sheed etc on your roster.

[Kwhit10]

when i think bball iq i think of timmy duncan and shane battier.  Or even players with no athelitcism like bruce bowen.

TP, Duncan and Battier would be first that come to mind.  Kidd and Nash too.

This list just seems like a popularity contest.

[Kiorrik]

This list just seems like a popularity contest.

QFT

[Bahku]

The point of being an unselfish player ... of putting the team before himself and looking for scoring opportunities for his team-mates first, himself second ... in my opinion Kobe will never become the complete team player that Paul is, on either end of the floor.

I think he has, tbh.

Besides, it's easy to say "team first" if you've got KG, Ray, Sheed etc on your roster.

Not remotely a team player, IMHO ... I know it's near sacrilege to speak negatively of Kobe's game, (I don't mean that sarcastically, but because he's one of the best ever, despite my loathing), but 81 points in a single game ... in today's NBA? And some of the comments he's made about his team-mates and coaching staff, (I'm talking within the last couple of years ... not early-on), not close to my definition of "team player", yet Paul has never had a problem with passing the ball, now or ten years ago. An unpopular opinion to be sure, (and not worth much), but mine nonetheless.

[Kiorrik]

The point of being an unselfish player ... of putting the team before himself and looking for scoring opportunities for his team-mates first, himself second ... in my opinion Kobe will never become the complete team player that Paul is, on either end of the floor.

I think he has, tbh.

Besides, it's easy to say "team first" if you've got KG, Ray, Sheed etc on your roster.

Not remotely a team player, IMHO ... I know it's near sacrilege to speak negatively of Kobe's game, (I don't mean that sarcastically, but because he's one of the best ever, despite my loathing), but 81 points in a single game ... in today's NBA? And some of the comments he's made about his team-mates and coaching staff, (I'm talking within the last couple of years ... not early-on), not close to my definition of "team player", yet Paul has never had a problem with passing the ball, now or ten years ago. An unpopular opinion to be sure, (and not worth much), but mine nonetheless.

I still believe, in the right surroundings, with the right staff, he can be contained. Kobe in Boston could have worked, and I think he *would* be a team-player in these circumstances.

[moiso]

I don't like Kobe and always root against him, but I think he has become a team player who takes a lot of shots in the last few years, Michael Jordan style.  He plays D, he passes.  I feel that players such as AI and Arenas have never learned to play team ball, but Kobe is a champion.

[j_fran]

The point of being an unselfish player ... of putting the team before himself and looking for scoring opportunities for his team-mates first, himself second ... in my opinion Kobe will never become the complete team player that Paul is, on either end of the floor.

I think he has, tbh.

Besides, it's easy to say "team first" if you've got KG, Ray, Sheed etc on your roster.

Not remotely a team player, IMHO ... I know it's near sacrilege to speak negatively of Kobe's game, (I don't mean that sarcastically, but because he's one of the best ever, despite my loathing), but 81 points in a single game ... in today's NBA? And some of the comments he's made about his team-mates and coaching staff, (I'm talking within the last couple of years ... not early-on), not close to my definition of "team player", yet Paul has never had a problem with passing the ball, now or ten years ago. An unpopular opinion to be sure, (and not worth much), but mine nonetheless.

sorry but using kobe's 81 point game to say he's selfish is just insane and makes you simply a hater.

and you can go ahead and make your argument that Kobe's a ball hog and a selfish player if you want (you're wrong and can't have watched too many laker games over the last few years if you think that) but you really have to define what makes a team player better than you do

[Greenbean]

Looks like the thread is hi jacked...but Pierce is wicked smaht on the court now but certainly took alot of heat in his younger days for questionable decisions. Tough to shake stigmas dating back to when he was establishing himself as a premier player.