Celtics (9-4) at Knicks (3-9) 11/22

[makaveli]

I think Rondo got striped for one rebound witch would make the trp-dbl. It was that play when he caught the ball, than in mid air threw it of Dunoh and the refs called it Knicks ball.

yea, I was wondering about that play too. Technically, he had it.

I think they'll credit him after seeing the tape. Last season the striped Lebron a rebound after the game and he lost the trp-dbl

[Tenacious D]

The team doesn't play solid defense anymore for entire games, only brief stretches.  On offense they play well for stretches but too often stand around in slow motion until the clock winds down.
This team is in trouble...

In short, where they were by the time of the Chicago-Orlando playoff series?

[LB3533]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

[Rida]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

Check out my video of the game winner

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=33166.msg620553#msg620553

[nickagneta]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated. Say what you want about the rest of the team missing shots or being in a slump but it can definitely be argued that the possible cause of bad shooting is forced, late in the shot clock shots do to one person dribbling around looking a shot or opening and then passing it off forcing a shot and poor spacing due to a lack of movement because one player is dominating the ball looking for their own offense.

[twinbree]

Once again I wasn't impressed with the overall team play but I will confess it gave me a petty little thrill to hand the Knicks a heartbreaking loss.
Hope we build on this win and start to play better.

[LB3533]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated. Say what you want about the rest of the team missing shots or being in a slump but it can definitely be argued that the possible cause of bad shooting is forced, late in the shot clock shots do to one person dribbling around looking a shot or opening and then passing it off forcing a shot and poor spacing due to a lack of movement because one player is dominating the ball looking for their own offense.

I can tell you, our team offense was awful today because our guys missed a ton of shots.

Outside of the 1st quarter (when Pierce had 11) we were completely abysmal as a team.

Take Pierce's shooting totals out and the team shot 38.8% from the field.

I can not fathom how Pierce wound up with 6 assists and Rondo also had 10...it just shows that this team is superbly unselfish....even when people are missing a ton of shots.


Edit: Don't let the 107 points fool you....this game went into OT and the Celtics had a huge advantage at the FT line (which never happens except maybe back in the 1980's). Oh and Pierce was largely responsible going to the line 10 times. Rondo went 8 times and we all know Rondo doesn't get to the line at all this year, so the free throw disparity in today's game was a fluke.

[amenhotep04]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated. Say what you want about the rest of the team missing shots or being in a slump but it can definitely be argued that the possible cause of bad shooting is forced, late in the shot clock shots do to one person dribbling around looking a shot or opening and then passing it off forcing a shot and poor spacing due to a lack of movement because one player is dominating the ball looking for their own offense.

Generally I'd agree with you Nick. Specifically, maybe not. The offense definitely is lacking organization. A lot of shots early in the game were pretty wide open, but nothing was falling. The adjustment to that phenomena unfortunately was NOT to drive to the hoop, although that did increase.

I can't help but think that the offense over the past two+ years has been predicated upon superior players outplaying the other team just based on sheer ability, and knowledge of the game. Now however, with KG still not 100% athletically, Ray struggling, the inconsistency of Sheed, as well as Eddie being more off than on, the lack of organization in the offense is showing itself.

Then of course there's the defense . . .

[RAcker]

My observation, for whatever it's worth, is that our poor shooting and turnovers are causing a lot of the defensive funk we're in.  Teams are getting points off of long rebounds and turnovers when we are getting back in transition.  When we get teams in half court offense, we're actually very good.

This offensive funk we're in is awful.  And it just cancels out some solid defense at times.  Take care of the ball and stop missing so many shots from deep and letting the other run out and we'll be our old selves again.

[nickagneta]

This none ball movement, Pierce-centric offense is ridiculously bad

Yo nick did you watch the game?

Who should Pierce pass the ball to so they can miss again?

The offense looks horrible when the rest of the team can't hit an open shot.

Meanwhile Pierce carried this team today....shoulda gone to Paul every single play after half-time.

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated. Say what you want about the rest of the team missing shots or being in a slump but it can definitely be argued that the possible cause of bad shooting is forced, late in the shot clock shots do to one person dribbling around looking a shot or opening and then passing it off forcing a shot and poor spacing due to a lack of movement because one player is dominating the ball looking for their own offense.

I can tell you, our team offense was awful today because our guys missed a ton of shots.

Outside of the 1st quarter (when Pierce had 11) we were completely abysmal as a team.

Take Pierce's shooting totals out and the team shot 38.8% from the field.

I can not fathom how Pierce wound up with 6 assists and Rondo also had 10...it just shows that this team is superbly unselfish....even when people are missing a ton of shots.


Edit: Don't let the 107 points fool you....this game went into OT and the Celtics had a huge advantage at the FT line (which never happens except maybe back in the 1980's). Oh and Pierce was largely responsible going to the line 10 times. Rondo went 8 times and we all know Rondo doesn't get to the line at all this year, so the free throw disparity in today's game was a fluke.

That all may or may not be true but the long term fix of the offensive problems is not to go one on one and hog the ball and not pass to other players. That is what I saw for the last minute of the game and overtime. Doc has already gone public with his displeasure of Ray and Pierce doing this once already.

You have to trust your team mates and trust the system and run plays and trust in the proper execution of those plays. I really could give a crap less what happened earlier in the game. During the period I watched it was selfish, Pierce-centric basketball. This has been a constant of this team during bad stretches over the last two seasons. When things go bad offensively for a period of time, this team abandons what makes it great offensively and goes solo with Pierce and Ray being the main culprits.

I don't care if the other players are cold for a game or two or ten. The solution to getting better and winning games is to stick with the game plan of running plays, ball movement, movement off the ball, looking for the extra pass and shooting when the shot is good, open, and within the flow of a run offense. In Pierce-centric and Ray-centric basketball, none of that ever happens.

[LB3533]

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated.

I just watched the last 8 minutes plus of the 4th quarter.....Celtics offensive possessions....

- Big 3 on the bench

- Technical foul on Sheed, Nate Robinson makes FT: Knicks up by 6

- Daniels gets ball on the wing, slashes and kicks out to wide open House who front rims a 3 pointer.

- Scal commits a charge on Eddy Curry

- Allen and KG check in at 7:58

- KG down on the box and rims out a turnaround bank shot. Perk offensive rebounds gets fouled and makes 1 of 2 free throws.

- KG again down on the box, backs down and makes his move for a turnaround fallaway but passes the ball out to the Knicks for a turnover. Tommy says KG has to shoot that shot, Gorman agrees.

- Pierce checks in at 6:46, C's still down 6 after Nate makes 1 or 2 at the line

- Pierce pick and roll with Perk, finds KG for open 20 footer at 9 seconds left on shot clock, Celtics down by 4, assist Paul Pierce.

- Pierce brings ball up finds Ray who shoots a challenged 3 pointer with 15 seconds left on the shot clock

- Pierce gets ball on the weak side wing from Perk, takes Perk's pick and misses a jumper at the free throw line with 9 seconds left on the shot clock, Perk gets offensive tip in

- After Rondo makes 1 of 2 from the Curry Flagrant, Pierce gets ball on the weak side wing again, this time from KG, Pierce fakes taking the KG pick and drives baseline for the layup with 18 seconds left on shot clock, tie score!

- Rondo brings ball up tries to go back to KG down on the box, Knicks over play, Rondo and KG try go back door for the alley oop lob, wasn't there...Rondo swings the ball to the weak side to Paul Pierce with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, Pierce waits for double screen by Perk and KG; and drives right to the strong side and finds KG open (9 seconds left on shot clock)for a 20 foot jumper on the weak side....KG doesn't even look to take the shot and hesitates passing to Ray Allen on the weak side baseline, pump fakes the pass...then passes to Ray with 8 seconds left, KG sets screen for Ray, Ray takes the screen and passes back to KG who drives the baseline with 4 seconds left, gets trapped underneath the back board having no shot, kicks out to Pierce with 3 seconds left and Paul takes a desperate pump faked/challenged 3 pointer airball for a 24 second violation, "turnover" Paul Pierce.

- Pierce down on the weak side wing, gets the ball from KG with 14 seconds left on the shot clock, KG sets a pick, Pierce takes it and shoots a jumper at the free throw line with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

- Rondo pushes the ball up and penetrates and finds Ray on the opposite side of the court, with 18 seconds left, for an open 3 pointer from the baseline, swish...Celtics lead!

- Pierce down on the weakside box again from KG, takes KG's pick, finds Rondo open on strong side baseline (he has been open all game on his own little island, Rondo misses open jump shot but gets his own miss....Pierce and KG play pick and roll again on the new 24 sec shot clock, Pierce finds KG open for a jumper with 7 seconds left, KG doesn't even take a look, passes the ball back to Pierce for an open jumper (6 seconds left), but Paul is long with the shot.

- After Knicks tie it up and a C's timeout, Pierce takes the inbound at half court from KG, they play pick and roll on the strong side, KG's man switches, Pierce drives to the strong side baseline and draws 2 - 3 defenders, finds KG wide open for 20 feet jumper with 14 seconds left on the shot clock. Celtics lead by 2.

- After a Knicks miss, C's call 20 sec timeout, advances the ball. Ray Allen takes the ball out on weak side, inbounds to Rondo. Ray and Pierce run a baseline screen with Pierce coming to Rondo from the baseline, Ray breaks from underneath the basket to the top of the key and curls to Rondo from the top of the key. Play doesn't develop, Ray cuts back to the strong side taking KG's pick. KG receives the ball from Rondo, Ray is down on the box on the strong side with 10 seconds left, makes his move and tries for a turn around jumper, but is fouled stripped of the ball. Chandler gets the loose ball and trips on his own feet with the ball going out of bounds. Mike D'antoni is upset, boo hoo. Celtics inbound the ball to Ray who is fouled by two Knicks, but is called for an offensive foul, "turnover" by Ray Allen.

- 4.7 seconds left, Knicks tied the game on a David Lee dunk. Rondo is still in the game, Doc's big mistake. There's just not enough time to run a set play after inbounding the ball to Rondo, a non shooter.

The Celtics tried to run a double screen for Pierce coming out towards Rondo. The play takes way too long to develop and Rondo has to take a last second desperate 3 point attempt which misses badly.

Conclusion: since Pierce checked in to the 4th quarter with 6+ minutes left, all the plays designed for Paul led to 15 of the 21 Celtic points.

Pierce was 2-4 with 2 assists and not once did he dominate the ball or dribble the clock down to shoot an ill-advised shot.

I don't care if the other players are cold for a game or two or ten. The solution to getting better and winning games is to stick with the game plan of running plays, ball movement, movement off the ball, looking for the extra pass and shooting when the shot is good, open, and within the flow of a run offense. In Pierce-centric and Ray-centric basketball, none of that ever happens.

Actually you should care if players are cold because they care themselves.

KG was missing all game and on 3 separate occasions did he not take the shot when it presented to him. 2 of which led to turnovers.

In actuality, Pierce and Doc kept milking the "Pierce centric offense" because it offered the best chance for the Celtics to score, either with Pierce or with an open KG.

If it wasn't for Pierce hammering away at the same play over and over, we would not have won the game.

[jdpapa3]

Can't watch this game when the Browns are playing the Lions. Too good of a game to pass up.

Looks like I was a prophet.

[nickagneta]

Actually missed the entire game except the last six minutes but what I saw I hated.

I just watched the last 8 minutes plus of the 4th quarter.....Celtics offensive possessions....

- Big 3 on the bench

- Technical foul on Sheed, Nate Robinson makes FT: Knicks up by 6

- Daniels gets ball on the wing, slashes and kicks out to wide open House who front rims a 3 pointer.

- Scal commits a charge on Eddy Curry

- Allen and KG check in at 7:58

- KG down on the box and rims out a turnaround bank shot. Perk offensive rebounds gets fouled and makes 1 of 2 free throws.

- KG again down on the box, backs down and makes his move for a turnaround fallaway but passes the ball out to the Knicks for a turnover. Tommy says KG has to shoot that shot, Gorman agrees.

- Pierce checks in at 6:46, C's still down 6 after Nate makes 1 or 2 at the line

- Pierce pick and roll with Perk, finds KG for open 20 footer at 9 seconds left on shot clock, Celtics down by 4, assist Paul Pierce.

- Pierce brings ball up finds Ray who shoots a challenged 3 pointer with 15 seconds left on the shot clock

- Pierce gets ball on the weak side wing from Perk, takes Perk's pick and misses a jumper at the free throw line with 9 seconds left on the shot clock, Perk gets offensive tip in

- After Rondo makes 1 of 2 from the Curry Flagrant, Pierce gets ball on the weak side wing again, this time from KG, Pierce fakes taking the KG pick and drives baseline for the layup with 18 seconds left on shot clock, tie score!

- Rondo brings ball up tries to go back to KG down on the box, Knicks over play, Rondo and KG try go back door for the alley oop lob, wasn't there...Rondo swings the ball to the weak side to Paul Pierce with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, Pierce waits for double screen by Perk and KG; and drives right to the strong side and finds KG open (9 seconds left on shot clock)for a 20 foot jumper on the weak side....KG doesn't even look to take the shot and hesitates passing to Ray Allen on the weak side baseline, pump fakes the pass...then passes to Ray with 8 seconds left, KG sets screen for Ray, Ray takes the screen and passes back to KG who drives the baseline with 4 seconds left, gets trapped underneath the back board having no shot, kicks out to Pierce with 3 seconds left and Paul takes a desperate pump faked/challenged 3 pointer airball for a 24 second violation, "turnover" Paul Pierce.

- Pierce down on the weak side wing, gets the ball from KG with 14 seconds left on the shot clock, KG sets a pick, Pierce takes it and shoots a jumper at the free throw line with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

- Rondo pushes the ball up and penetrates and finds Ray on the opposite side of the court, with 18 seconds left, for an open 3 pointer from the baseline, swish...Celtics lead!

- Pierce down on the weakside box again from KG, takes KG's pick, finds Rondo open on strong side baseline (he has been open all game on his own little island, Rondo misses open jump shot but gets his own miss....Pierce and KG play pick and roll again on the new 24 sec shot clock, Pierce finds KG open for a jumper with 7 seconds left, KG doesn't even take a look, passes the ball back to Pierce for an open jumper (6 seconds left), but Paul is long with the shot.

- After Knicks tie it up and a C's timeout, Pierce takes the inbound at half court from KG, they play pick and roll on the strong side, KG's man switches, Pierce drives to the strong side baseline and draws 2 - 3 defenders, finds KG wide open for 20 feet jumper with 14 seconds left on the shot clock. Celtics lead by 2.

- After a Knicks miss, C's call 20 sec timeout, advances the ball. Ray Allen takes the ball out on weak side, inbounds to Rondo. Ray and Pierce run a baseline screen with Pierce coming to Rondo from the baseline, Ray breaks from underneath the basket to the top of the key and curls to Rondo from the top of the key. Play doesn't develop, Ray cuts back to the strong side taking KG's pick. KG receives the ball from Rondo, Ray is down on the box on the strong side with 10 seconds left, makes his move and tries for a turn around jumper, but is fouled stripped of the ball. Chandler gets the loose ball and trips on his own feet with the ball going out of bounds. Mike D'antoni is upset, boo hoo. Celtics inbound the ball to Ray who is fouled by two Knicks, but is called for an offensive foul, "turnover" by Ray Allen.

- 4.7 seconds left, Knicks tied the game on a David Lee dunk. Rondo is still in the game, Doc's big mistake. There's just not enough time to run a set play after inbounding the ball to Rondo, a non shooter.

The Celtics tried to run a double screen for Pierce coming out towards Rondo. The play takes way too long to develop and Rondo has to take a last second desperate 3 point attempt which misses badly.

Conclusion: since Pierce checked in to the 4th quarter with 6+ minutes left, all the plays designed for Paul led to 15 of the 21 Celtic points.

Pierce was 2-4 with 2 assists and not once did he dominate the ball or dribble the clock down to shoot an ill-advised shot.

I don't care if the other players are cold for a game or two or ten. The solution to getting better and winning games is to stick with the game plan of running plays, ball movement, movement off the ball, looking for the extra pass and shooting when the shot is good, open, and within the flow of a run offense. In Pierce-centric and Ray-centric basketball, none of that ever happens.

Actually you should care if players are cold because they care themselves.

KG was missing all game and on 3 separate occasions did he not take the shot when it presented to him. 2 of which led to turnovers.

In actuality, Pierce and Doc kept milking the "Pierce centric offense" because it offered the best chance for the Celtics to score, either with Pierce or with an open KG.

If it wasn't for Pierce hammering away at the same play over and over, we would not have won the game.

You didn't read what I wrote very carefully, did you?

I said I saw the last six minutes of the game, not the fourth quarter. I watched the last minute of the game and the OT. I saw maybe the last 2-3 possessions of the fourth and the entire OT. During that time the offense was Pierce-centric and the offense was bad. They might have shot 30% during that time with most of the offense running through Pierce.

If during the rest of the game that offense worked...fine. I can't comment on that I didn't see it. But going against what you do and works best to go to one player all the time is counter-productive in my eyes. Run your offense, if the players are cold then run plays for the hot players. But to give the ball to one player who dominates the ball, that's not their scheme and I will always not like it. I would rather lose some games a year running the offense correctly and homing the team skills of running the offense correctly than winning because we have to give the ball to one player all the time.

[scoop]

Our offence only reached acceptable levels once Pierce started to run it. He was creating much better looks for his teammates than Rondo.

[nickagneta]

Our offence only reached acceptable levels once Pierce started to run it. He was creating much better looks for his teammates than Rondo.

I'll take your word on it but from what I have seen of this offense in the last six minutes of the game and the previous games, I don't like it and I think it makes the team a lot worse, offensively.