Rondo needs to play better D in a hurry

[crownsy]

Sadly it seems like once the contract talks were finished and he was set he stopped caring so much about defense. It's like EJ has said, it's not that he can't stay with his man he just doesn't really try to.  When the balls not in his mans hands he wanders far off leaving his man open for a wide open 3 or a head start at the basket. . He plays lazy defense, the type of defense you play when you feel you can recover from whatever move your man makes. When he plays his man one on one he tend to give up the first step (plays him to the side). He loves to switch so that he remains at the top of the key on defense aka where the steals are easist to pick up. He doesn't always fight through picks, and sometimes gets stuck with a big man down low. Most of this is on him for not putting in the effort.

Also well said. TP

sorry, but i have to chime in with the "not correct" crowd. He's played this way on defense for some time now. He often gets excuses made (His ankle injury, part of the celtics scheme, ect) but he has ALWAYS had these exact same complaints.

+ plays the passing lane well
+ can intimidate weaker ball handelers with pressure
+ quick hands

- Often gambles
- Struggles through picks at times
- Can get caught gambling for steals off double teams, leaving his man open.
- sometimes struggles to keep man in front of him


That would be my scouting report of rondo pre and post contract. The criticism of his defense is valid, the leap to his contract being the cause is just that, a gigantic leap.

[Chris]

I don't know. I think he has always played this way, but the lapses in these last couple of games look more obvious than usual because the bigs haven't been able to help him out. Doc and the team have been talking a lot about how communication on defense needs to improve.. so that might be one factor. Rondo would be much better on defense if his teammates tell him about picks ahead of time, whether they've got his back if his man slips through, etc.

Regarding his (not) fighting over picks, I sometimes wonder if he's hiding an injury of some sort. He's avoiding a lot of other contact too - he's not drawing fouls inside the paint, he's not going for rebounds as much.

I think Rondo wandering around is fine as long as he keeps his head in the game and there's a purpose to it. But sometimes he just wanders around looking lost.

I think this is true.  The team defense in general has been weak lately.  The bigs have not been playing the pick and rolls the correct way themselves, and then no one has been rotating on the backside, leaving guys wide open for 3's, over and over again.  But this does not change the fact that Rondo still does not fight through picks, and plays flatfooted on defense.

[ManUp]

The thing is right now Rondo loses track of his man completely. Instead of getting stuck on the picks and showing late he doesn't even show he opts to switch. Instead of gives his man half a step he is given 1 or 2. I just feel like whatever he was doing before worked a lot better than what he is doing now. I never thought of him as a lockdown defender, but he knew how to play his man to his advantage defensively most times. That's why a lot of the guys he was defending would have poor/mediocre games when facing him, especially in terms of not turning over the ball.

[BballTim]

Sadly it seems like once the contract talks were finished and he was set he stopped caring so much about defense.

Erm, no, he was just about the same pre-contract. He gets stuck on picks (we have our own "velcro" now, Tommy), gambles for steals on D, and wanders off his man, which results in open jumpers and easy layups.

Exactly.  He is playing no different than he has in the past on defense.  I think people just were blinded a bit by his "upside".  Now that he is being paid like an elite player, the warts show up.

I honestly don't remember him wandering away from his man as much, and feel he wasn't gamble the way he is now. He did gamble the first few games, but now it's jut like he's ignoring his man completely on defense.

He may not have wandered around as much (although i think its close), but he absolutely got burned non-stop.  He has always been terrible at keeping his man in front of him, unless he is really focused on it (which is rare)...and even then, he always has gotten caught up on picks way too easily.

Put simply, Rondo never was anything close to a lockdown defender.  He always was an aggressive defender who could make plays on that side of the ball, but also made a ton of mistakes. 

  Which defenders lock down opposing point guards? I think that he's at least holding many of them to below their averages. According to 82games opposing pgs are taking 17% of their shots against Rondo from the inside this year, down from 28% last year.

[Chris]

Sadly it seems like once the contract talks were finished and he was set he stopped caring so much about defense.

Erm, no, he was just about the same pre-contract. He gets stuck on picks (we have our own "velcro" now, Tommy), gambles for steals on D, and wanders off his man, which results in open jumpers and easy layups.

Exactly.  He is playing no different than he has in the past on defense.  I think people just were blinded a bit by his "upside".  Now that he is being paid like an elite player, the warts show up.

I honestly don't remember him wandering away from his man as much, and feel he wasn't gamble the way he is now. He did gamble the first few games, but now it's jut like he's ignoring his man completely on defense.

He may not have wandered around as much (although i think its close), but he absolutely got burned non-stop.  He has always been terrible at keeping his man in front of him, unless he is really focused on it (which is rare)...and even then, he always has gotten caught up on picks way too easily.

Put simply, Rondo never was anything close to a lockdown defender.  He always was an aggressive defender who could make plays on that side of the ball, but also made a ton of mistakes. 

  Which defenders lock down opposing point guards? I think that he's at least holding many of them to below their averages. According to 82games opposing pgs are taking 17% of their shots from the inside this year, down from 28% last year.

Your right, there are very few PG's who are lockdown defenders.  I am not saying Rondo is not still one of the better PG defenders.  I am saying that even though he is one of the better PG defenders (at least among starting PGs...there are some really good ones off the bench, that just suck offensively), that does not mean he is actually doing well.  The vast majority of PGs are TERRIBLE defenders. 

The problem with Rondo is that he has the potential to be one of the best defenders in the league.  Not defensive PGs, but actual defenders.  But he won't be that until he learns how to fight through picks, and learns how to keep his man in front of him consistently. 

[Fafnir]

One of the reasons they're so good off the bench is that they put all their energy into defensive play for short bursts of minutes. They also don't have to worry about foul trouble.

Asking Rondo to energize the offense and also be a "lock-down" defensive PG is asking a lot. I think people have unrealistic expectations of his overall energy level on both ends.

Can he do better, sure. But asking him to be young KG at the PG position is a little much.

[KCattheStripe]

One of the reasons they're so good off the bench is that they put all their energy into defensive play for short bursts of minutes. They also don't have to worry about foul trouble.

Asking Rondo to energize the offense and also be a "lock-down" defensive PG is asking a lot. I think people have unrealistic expectations of his overall energy level on both ends.

Can he do better, sure. But asking him to be young KG at the PG position is a little much.

Nope. He should be the perfect player. You're wrong. LALALALALALALALALALA... NOT LISTENING!

[Fafnir]

One of the reasons they're so good off the bench is that they put all their energy into defensive play for short bursts of minutes. They also don't have to worry about foul trouble.

Asking Rondo to energize the offense and also be a "lock-down" defensive PG is asking a lot. I think people have unrealistic expectations of his overall energy level on both ends.

Can he do better, sure. But asking him to be young KG at the PG position is a little much.

Nope. He should be the perfect player. You're wrong. LALALALALALALALALALA... NOT LISTENING!

LOL, tp.

The main thing is, if Rondo "got it" like so many posters wanted he'd probably be an all time great PG. He's not, so I think people get lost to how good he is and can be though.

(Hit a jumpshot near league average, 75% FT shooter, and played with consistent defensive intensity)

[pengaloo]

One of the reasons they're so good off the bench is that they put all their energy into defensive play for short bursts of minutes. They also don't have to worry about foul trouble.

Asking Rondo to energize the offense and also be a "lock-down" defensive PG is asking a lot. I think people have unrealistic expectations of his overall energy level on both ends.

Can he do better, sure. But asking him to be young KG at the PG position is a little much.

Nope. He should be the perfect player. You're wrong. LALALALALALALALALALA... NOT LISTENING!

LOL, tp.

The main thing is, if Rondo "got it" like so many posters wanted he'd probably be an all time great PG. He's not, so I think people get lost to how good he is and can be though.

(Hit a jumpshot near league average, 75% FT shooter, and played with consistent defensive intensity)

What's wrong with asking him to play MVP level basketball?

[BballTim]

Sadly it seems like once the contract talks were finished and he was set he stopped caring so much about defense.

Erm, no, he was just about the same pre-contract. He gets stuck on picks (we have our own "velcro" now, Tommy), gambles for steals on D, and wanders off his man, which results in open jumpers and easy layups.

Exactly.  He is playing no different than he has in the past on defense.  I think people just were blinded a bit by his "upside".  Now that he is being paid like an elite player, the warts show up.

I honestly don't remember him wandering away from his man as much, and feel he wasn't gamble the way he is now. He did gamble the first few games, but now it's jut like he's ignoring his man completely on defense.

He may not have wandered around as much (although i think its close), but he absolutely got burned non-stop.  He has always been terrible at keeping his man in front of him, unless he is really focused on it (which is rare)...and even then, he always has gotten caught up on picks way too easily.

Put simply, Rondo never was anything close to a lockdown defender.  He always was an aggressive defender who could make plays on that side of the ball, but also made a ton of mistakes. 

  Which defenders lock down opposing point guards? I think that he's at least holding many of them to below their averages. According to 82games opposing pgs are taking 17% of their shots from the inside this year, down from 28% last year.

Your right, there are very few PG's who are lockdown defenders.  I am not saying Rondo is not still one of the better PG defenders.  I am saying that even though he is one of the better PG defenders (at least among starting PGs...there are some really good ones off the bench, that just suck offensively), that does not mean he is actually doing well.  The vast majority of PGs are TERRIBLE defenders. 

The problem with Rondo is that he has the potential to be one of the best defenders in the league.  Not defensive PGs, but actual defenders.  But he won't be that until he learns how to fight through picks, and learns how to keep his man in front of him consistently. 

  But part of what you see in these threads are just people putting Rondo under too much of a microscope. A lot of the time Rondo gets beat it's off of a pick. Should he fight through picks better? Maybe, but if you're fighting through a pick when the opposing pg turned the corner and is heading down the lane you're never going to catch him. Also, I think it hurts Rondo's reputation here when he tries to poke the ball away from opposing players. Say you're Rondo and Monta Ellis just got past you (like he gets past everyone else). What do you do? He generally swipes at the ball from behind and gets it a lot of the time. But 50% of the board (if not more) will assume that he deliberately let the guy past him in order to swipe the ball. It's a can't-win situation for him.

  Honestly, I don't really go along with the "Rondo's one of the best but that means nothing because everyone's bad" train of thought. You have to have some context. It's like saying Ray's a terrible three point shooter because he misses more of them than he makes. Most of the other players are just worse.

[kozlodoev]

Rondo, but in some cases that's a double we scheme to do. Our D is based on overloaded the strong side.

This is true.

However, I can see a distinct difference in how we overload this season, as opposed to how we overloaded in the championship year.

Two years ago you will see a big man step up to cut off the corner, creating a pseudo-trap on the strong side, and the inside defense would rotate to adjust. If this is executed correctly, the person with the ball will have to make a pass to what is virtually the farthest point on the court, over a seven footer, and with the man off the pick running at the receiver.

This was what people recognized as the best pick-and-roll defense in the league?


What do we do this season? Kill me if I know, but at any point in time there is either a wide open drive to the basket, or a wide open cutter. A lot of this is the fact the Rondo roams on every defensive possession, which makes adjustment virtually impossible due to the fact that if the defense rotates, there are _two_ open men on the floor instead of one, and the pass that leads to an open layup is much easier.

So no, I don't think it's a coincidence that in the last 7 games teams have been averaging .450 shooting against us, and I am at a loss why we're not fixing this problem.

[BballTim]

Rondo, but in some cases that's a double we scheme to do. Our D is based on overloaded the strong side.

This is true.

However, I can see a distinct difference in how we overload this season, as opposed to how we overloaded in the championship year.

Two years ago you will see a big man step up to cut off the corner, creating a pseudo-trap on the strong side, and the inside defense would rotate to adjust. If this is executed correctly, the person with the ball will have to make a pass to what is virtually the farthest point on the court, over a seven footer, and with the man off the pick running at the receiver.

This was what people recognized as the best pick-and-roll defense in the league?


What do we do this season? Kill me if I know, but at any point in time there is either a wide open drive to the basket, or a wide open cutter. A lot of this is the fact the Rondo roams on every defensive possession, which makes adjustment virtually impossible due to the fact that if the defense rotates, there are _two_ open men on the floor instead of one, and the pass that leads to an open layup is much easier.

So no, I don't think it's a coincidence that in the last 7 games teams have been averaging .450 shooting against us, and I am at a loss why we're not fixing this problem.

  In spite of the fact that teams are shooting 45% against us our defense is (so far) performing about as well as we did 2 years ago. Teams are shooting better against us but we're giving up fewer free throws and causing more turnovers.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

I think Rondo's defense has been improved this season, in terms of staying in front of his man and limiting his defensive gambles, but I have seen some slippage in the last 2 games (mostly the Indiana game, which was horrible).  The people who complain about his defense often don't understand the way the defense is designed.

It's important to remember that pick-and-roll defense invovles a big 'showing' or 'blitzing' the ball handler and then retreating to cover his original man while the ball defender is fighting through the pick and ideally recovering in time to limit penetration or a jump shot opportunity.  When this breaks down, it's often a combination of either the big failing to 'show' enough to stop the penetration immediately after the pick is set; or it's a failure of the ball defender recovering enough to stop the secondary penetration or jump shot opportunity.

So, there are two components--the big showing and the ball defender fighting through a pick and recovering.  To me, our bigs have been pretty terrible in this recent stretch when it comes to 'blitzing' the ball handler.  Too often, the ball handler just sprints right by and gets to the rim.  Those plays are on the big men for the most part. 

Rondo's troubles come when he sees the bigs failing to blitz enough to stop the initial penetration attempt.  When he sees that, his reaction, too often, is to start gambling, the thought being that if the big isn't going to blitz adequately then the only way to save the play is to go for the home run swing--that is, by gambling for a steal.  In essence, Rondo sees the bigs losing defensive discipline and uses that as justification to lose his own defensive discipline.  What ends up happening, in the end, is that the entire defensive scheme starts to break down. 

So, to boil it all down to Rondo not playing defense is to completely discount how the Celtics play the pick and roll. 

As Rondo matures, he'll get better at keeping defensive discipline no matter what his teammates are doing, be it when he sees the bigs failing to blitz, or when he sees something on the strong side which causes him to stray too far from his man.  His defensive problems, for the most part, are not about a lack of effort or intelligence; instead they stem from trying to do too much and taking too many chances to cover for his teammates' mistakes.

[EJPLAYA]

Why anyone would defend a lack of effort is beyond me. Everyone lit up POB because he didn't play with the focus and effort that he was capable of. Rondo however gets excused. Maybe he's hurt, it's the scheme, blah blah blah. The guy is a lazy defender who only wants the quick steal. He has no defensive heart whatsoever. Sadly he has the quickness, athleticism, and physique (arm length and strength) to be one of the best on that side of the ball but instead chooses to be poor to mediocre. I don't respect that one bit and if you look back I have been saying this since he started getting playing time. THAT's when Doc should have solved the problem. No defense, not PT.

[crownsy]

Why anyone would defend a lack of effort is beyond me. Everyone lit up POB because he didn't play with the focus and effort that he was capable of. Rondo however gets excused. Maybe he's hurt, it's the scheme, blah blah blah. The guy is a lazy defender who only wants the quick steal. He has no defensive heart whatsoever. Sadly he has the quickness, athleticism, and physique (arm length and strength) to be one of the best on that side of the ball but instead chooses to be poor to mediocre. I don't respect that one bit and if you look back I have been saying this since he started getting playing time. THAT's when Doc should have solved the problem. No defense, not PT.

Have you ever considered that mabey he's just not as good a one-on-one defender, in reality or potential as people like to promote?

I for one think it's the above, I've NEVER understood where this idea that he's fantastic at keeping his man in front of him but just lazy comes from. He hasen't been anything other than average at keeping someone in front of him at ANY level he's played at.

He's quick, yes, but he's not really great at moving laterally or fighting through picks. not everything is a lack of effort, i think you tend to ascribe that to him.

Full court pressure, which he IS good at, has nothing to do with keeping a guy in front of you in a half court system.

I'm more of the opinion that his ability to keep a PG in front of him has ALWAYS been vastly over hyped. People know he's fast, so they don't understand why he can't keep guys with equal or less speed between his knees. the simple fact is he's never been very good at it.

But speed has never been all their is to defending against PG's who know how to drive. If it was, a lot of fantastic driving PG's wouldn't have job's in the league.