Are the Heat better off not signing a second superstar in 2010?

[nickagneta]

Superstars win in this league.

Riley will renounce all of his expiring contracts, sign Wade and Bosh and use the the rest of the cap money to absorb a starting 1, 5 or a solid 3rd star in exchange for Beasley. The rest of the missing pieces can be acquired throughout the 7 year window that core will have via MLE, LLE, 1st round picks and vet mins.

I think that's the way it will go down too but Riley raises an interesting point. If he loses Wade he just might have to go that route anyway.

Also keep in mind that players can be signed and traded after they have been waived. Riley will probably hang on to Beasley, Chalmers, Cook and Anthony along with Wade. Sign Bosh. Sign Shaq or Miller or Haywood for the MLE. After that, they can sign and trade any of their previous players as expiring deals.

For example, Jermaine O'Neill could be signed and traded as a $20 million expiring contract (1 year garaunteed, 2 years team option) to help some cash strapped team clear all of their bad contracts.

Actually, that is not correct. If the Heat do not renounce their players, they will not have cap room in order to sign Bosh. If the Heat don't renounce their free agents, then there are holds against the cap equal to a portion of their last year's salary, in the case of the Heat's free agents, it's 120-130% of that salary. Those holds would put them over the cap and make it impossible to sign Bosh.

So if they sign Bosh, they will only get the money left over under the cap to sign other players as well as veteran minimum contracts. There will be no sign and trades, no MLE's and no LLE's.

[Michael Anthony]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?
Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn't be able to use Bird rights (see question number 25).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

[Who]

The Heat are best off signing a big name star to play second fiddle to Wade.

The more interesting question, I think, is whether they're better off adding a third star at somewhere around $10 million per annum or splitting it between two high quality role players. I think there's a good chance that the Heat could find better value with the role players here.

[Michael Anthony]

Superstars win in this league.

Riley will renounce all of his expiring contracts, sign Wade and Bosh and use the the rest of the cap money to absorb a starting 1, 5 or a solid 3rd star in exchange for Beasley. The rest of the missing pieces can be acquired throughout the 7 year window that core will have via MLE, LLE, 1st round picks and vet mins.

I think that's the way it will go down too but Riley raises an interesting point. If he loses Wade he just might have to go that route anyway.

Also keep in mind that players can be signed and traded after they have been waived. Riley will probably hang on to Beasley, Chalmers, Cook and Anthony along with Wade. Sign Bosh. Sign Shaq or Miller or Haywood for the MLE. After that, they can sign and trade any of their previous players as expiring deals.

For example, Jermaine O'Neill could be signed and traded as a $20 million expiring contract (1 year garaunteed, 2 years team option) to help some cash strapped team clear all of their bad contracts.

Actually, that is not correct. If the Heat do not renounce their players, they will not have cap room in order to sign Bosh. If the Heat don't renounce their free agents, then there are holds against the cap equal to a portion of their last year's salary, in the case of the Heat's free agents, it's 120-130% of that salary. Those holds would put them over the cap and make it impossible to sign Bosh.

So if they sign Bosh, they will only get the money left over under the cap to sign other players as well as veteran minimum contracts. There will be no sign and trades, no MLE's and no LLE's.

In the scenario I am proposing, the Heat renounce almost everybody to free up the cap space. They can then sign and trade their renounced players per the CBA. (See my previous post)

[the_Bird]

How can they sign-and-trade players that they're renounced?  My understanding has been that once renounce a free agent (to eliminate that cap hold), you can only sign them again at the veteran minimum.  Is there a loophole specific to sign-and-trades?

EDIT: Forget it, reading your previous post...   that's odd.  Well, rules is rules.

[BudweiserCeltic]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?
Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn't be able to use Bird rights (see question number 25).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

As long as they have cap space to fit the salary. The problem with this is that one, you lose players you have control over (of course if you don't have interest in them it's irrelevant) and as you sign free-agents in the market, the sign and trade prospects start to diminish.

How can they sign-and-trade players that they're renounced?  My understanding has been that once renounce a free agent (to eliminate that cap hold), you can only sign them again at the veteran minimum.  Is there a loophole specific to sign-and-trades?

By renouncing, you simply lose the bird rights. You can still sign them with your available resources.

[nickagneta]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?
Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn't be able to use Bird rights (see question number 25).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

33. What does renouncing a player mean?

As detailed in question number 30, free agents continue to be included in team salary. By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 19) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception. The exception to this is an Early Bird free agent who is coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. Such players, when renounced, are treated as Non-Bird free agents.

If the player does not sign with any team (his prior team or any other team) for the entire season, then his renouncement continues. In other words, the team is not permitted to renounce a player, let him lie idle for the year, then re-sign him the following summer using Bird rights. However, if the player re-signs with his prior team, then his renouncement is no longer in effect when his contract ends. For example, if a team renounces their Larry Bird rights to a player, then re-signs that player to a one-year contract using cap room, then the player is once again a Larry Bird free agent the following summer.

After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 76).

Read the red part. If after signing Bosh and some other players the Heat get close to or over the cap, the only way they could re-sign and trade them is for money they have under the cap or a veteran's minimum contract. Given that a vetran's minimum contract directly opposes the need for a three year contract on a renounced sign and trade, Haslam, O'Neal and Richardson are not going to be signed and traded after the Heat sign Bosh and someone else. It's an impossibility.

[Michael Anthony]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?
Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn't be able to use Bird rights (see question number 25).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

As long as they have cap space to fit the salary. The problem with this is that one, you lose players you have control over (of course if you don't have interest in them it's irrelevant) and as you sign free-agents in the market, the sign and trade prospects start to diminish.

How can they sign-and-trade players that they're renounced?  My understanding has been that once renounce a free agent (to eliminate that cap hold), you can only sign them again at the veteran minimum.  Is there a loophole specific to sign-and-trades?

By renouncing, you simply lose the bird rights. You can still sign them with your available resources.

I thought sections 76 and 78 were connected - that the team could renounce the player, than sign-and-trade him using th preexisting bird rights. My mistake.

78. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?
Teams benefit because it allows them to get something in return for players they would otherwise lose to free agency. Players benefit because they can get a richer contract, and/or play for a team that is over the salary cap and otherwise wouldn't be able to afford them. Unlike the new team, the player's original team can use the various Bird exceptions (as long as the player qualifies) to sign the player without regard to the cap. Also, if the player's original team has full Bird rights, they can offer the player larger raises (10.5%, as opposed to 8%) and more seasons (six, as opposed to five -- see question number 46 for more information).

So sign-and-trade is a useful tool for teams that are capped-out and unable to offer players large contracts.

[nickagneta]

Superstars win in this league.

Riley will renounce all of his expiring contracts, sign Wade and Bosh and use the the rest of the cap money to absorb a starting 1, 5 or a solid 3rd star in exchange for Beasley. The rest of the missing pieces can be acquired throughout the 7 year window that core will have via MLE, LLE, 1st round picks and vet mins.

I think that's the way it will go down too but Riley raises an interesting point. If he loses Wade he just might have to go that route anyway.

Also keep in mind that players can be signed and traded after they have been waived. Riley will probably hang on to Beasley, Chalmers, Cook and Anthony along with Wade. Sign Bosh. Sign Shaq or Miller or Haywood for the MLE. After that, they can sign and trade any of their previous players as expiring deals.

For example, Jermaine O'Neill could be signed and traded as a $20 million expiring contract (1 year garaunteed, 2 years team option) to help some cash strapped team clear all of their bad contracts.

Actually, that is not correct. If the Heat do not renounce their players, they will not have cap room in order to sign Bosh. If the Heat don't renounce their free agents, then there are holds against the cap equal to a portion of their last year's salary, in the case of the Heat's free agents, it's 120-130% of that salary. Those holds would put them over the cap and make it impossible to sign Bosh.

So if they sign Bosh, they will only get the money left over under the cap to sign other players as well as veteran minimum contracts. There will be no sign and trades, no MLE's and no LLE's.

In the scenario I am proposing, the Heat renounce almost everybody to free up the cap space. They can then sign and trade their renounced players per the CBA. (See my previous post)

And then how do they sign Bosh?

[Jon]

Superstars win in this league.

Riley will renounce all of his expiring contracts, sign Wade and Bosh and use the the rest of the cap money to absorb a starting 1, 5 or a solid 3rd star in exchange for Beasley. The rest of the missing pieces can be acquired throughout the 7 year window that core will have via MLE, LLE, 1st round picks and vet mins.

I think that's the way it will go down too but Riley raises an interesting point. If he loses Wade he just might have to go that route anyway.

I tend to agree with the superstar sentiment.  Quite frankly, teams with a bunch of "good players" seldom win it all, and when they do, it's usually a very weak year for the league (see the 1979 Sonics or the 2004 Pistons). 

I do think the Heat are potentially better of signing no one if they can't sign a superstar.  Too many times teams clear cap space, lose out on who they want, and settle on mediocre players for long term contracts.  The better move would be to sign nobody or sign players to only 1 year deals and wait to 2011 for someone worthwhile. 

I hope the C's take that approach when the Big Three finally go. 

[JBcat]

If Riley has a chance to grab another superstar it wouldn't be a wise move to pass especially a young one.  You don't get many chances to have 1 let alone 2 and as others have said more often than at least 2 superstars get you the titles not a collection of very good players and 1 superstar.   Look at all the 1-2 tandems we have seen over the years with championship teams. 

If the Heat landed Bosh just entering his prime they would have an excellent core.

It would be a team that could look similar to the Lakers.

Chambers vs Fisher
Wade vs Bryant
Beasley vs Odom
Bosh vs Gasol
? vs Bynum

They could find a very serviceable center somewhere like Brad Miller that wants to play with 2 superstars and all of a sudden you have a team comparable to the makeup of the Lakers.   Plus it's a young enough core where you have time (a few years at least) to fill in gaps along the way before the superstars get too old.

Of course I still like our team better next year