Author Topic: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)  (Read 32589 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2009, 03:01:53 PM »

Offline the_Bird

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3244
  • Tommy Points: 176
So, he wouldn't be chipping in towards the mortgage payments?  In that case, I stand by my assertion that it would be horribly reckless - that's still a $300k mortgage supported by $45k income. 

From your brother's perspective, he stands to make some money if the house does appreciate, but he's taking a lot of risk as well; he's on the hook if you can't make the payments.  It's worse that you say it's your brother, if this DOES go bad, it's one thing to Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. up a friendship, another to Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. up a family relationship.  Tread VERY cautiously.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
Well...  explain this partnership deal.  A friend making half of the payments, purely as an investment?  A friend that would make half of the payments and live in the other unit?  A friend that would just be on the loan because they have income, but wouldn't either actually MAKE any payments or have any stake in future capital gains?  

Can't really consider it if you haven't explained it...  it's been very nebulous ;)

EDIT: To expand on this, assuming the friend will be buying half the house and living in the other unit, how confident are you in their ability to continue making payments?  If they lose their job or just walk  (you did say their credit was crap), you'll be hung out to dry.  Seems like a lot of ways to lose a friendship.

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

Quote
If I can find a two unit house I already have the 2nd unit rented out for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).

So your brother is going to be used for income verification, but he will actually be paying rent on the other unit, and would not actually own part of the house?

I don't know, this all just sounds sketchy.  What would happen if he decides to move?  Do you have something worked out?  It is not a guarantee that you would find a new tenant right away.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2009, 03:06:45 PM »

Offline the_Bird

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3244
  • Tommy Points: 176
Well, he's GOING to own part of the home, they aren't going to consider his income for purposes of the mortgage if his name's not attached to the deed. 

Where's Roy?  I think we need a legal opinion on if it was even possible to legally structure a partnership to do this. 

If your brother's on the mortgage, but as a passive investor...  I'm wondering how that may impact things like being able to defer capital gains on the house's eventual sale. 

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2009, 03:09:13 PM »

Offline JSD

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12590
  • Tommy Points: 2159
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2009, 03:11:49 PM »

Offline JSD

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12590
  • Tommy Points: 2159
Well, he's GOING to own part of the home, they aren't going to consider his income for purposes of the mortgage if his name's not attached to the deed. 

Where's Roy?  I think we need a legal opinion on if it was even possible to legally structure a partnership to do this. 

If your brother's on the mortgage, but as a passive investor...  I'm wondering how that may impact things like being able to defer capital gains on the house's eventual sale. 

The new place will be listed as his primary residence for loan purposes.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2009, 03:12:53 PM »

Offline JSD

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12590
  • Tommy Points: 2159
All of this is just explaining what I thought was clear anyway.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2009, 03:13:20 PM »

Offline ChampKind

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3079
  • Tommy Points: 665
  • I left Indiana. Because it was horrible.
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).

What do you still owe on the condo, though?  It didn't seem like the $900 in rent you were receiving was all profit.  What would your total house payments (house and condo) be at that point?
CB Draft Bucks: Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Tobias Harris, Zach LaVine, Aaron Afflalo, Jeff Green, Donatas Motiejunas, Jarrett Jack, Frank Kaminsky, Lance Stephenson, JaVale McGee, Shane Larkin, Nick Young

DKC Bucks. Also terrible.

http://www.anchorofgold.com

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2009, 03:22:51 PM »

Offline Nut from Nh

  • Xavier Tillman
  • Posts: 37
  • Tommy Points: 10
I have lived within my means my entire life and am very careful with my financial decisions. I found this line:
Quote
Your plan is reckless, and it is not uncommon.  Frankly, this line of thinking and decision making is why we are in this crisis.

Extremely insulting.

Not meant to be at all my friend.  I really tried my best to convey that in my response, while at the same time trying to give you some cause for hesitation. 

And not to get into it bc you have the right to be insulted, but I think most would agree, and it appears as though many already have, that this is reckless. 

So here goes:  300k on you and your wife's income is reckless.  I think even you agree bc you have got creative and are looking at a possible "partnership" to work around the bank essentially telling you this would be reckless by not approving you.  So, first I think it's important to look at your motivations here.  You mention we're at the bottom, you mention a 10 year horizon for your investment in the home, you mention a partnership...

These comments and ideas sound like you look at this home as an investment, almost a business, as so many people have.  And they got burned.  In investments I strongly recommend that we put little faith in our ability to time markets.  If we could predict markets with accuracy everybody would have bailed out of the market in the fall and bought back into the market at it's bottom on March 9th, rest in peace BIG  :'(

Your home is your home.  Over the long run you will benefit from from leverage and equity which will build significant wealth.  Leverage is using other people's money to invest, and the avg Americans best chance at using large amounts of leverage to their advantage is in home ownership.  If you are looking for a partnership, I think your looking for trouble.  Unless this is Big Love and the person is part of your big happy family I think you are introducing risk, to your relationship AND your investment. 

If you knew the market had another 15% to drop would you be rushing to find a partner?  That would mean the house you like today for 300k could be yours in a couple of months to a year for just 255K!! think about that.

I think you are highly motivated by your opinion that there is money to be made bc we have hit bottom.  there is nothing wrong with taking market timing into consideration, but it shouldn't cause you to make decisions that are dominated by it. 

How about this angle Jsaad.  Do you want your wife's roof dependent upon a partner?  Assuming you have someone who is willing to dump money into this home for 10 YEARS waiting for a return on their investment, your LIFE is in the hands of someone else.  They don't have as much riding on this as you, that leaves you in a dangerous situation.  What if they lose their job, or just get sick of throwing money away until 2020!!  Think about that, they are going to pay for your American Dream until the year 2019 - 2020! 

What if the Nut from the Granite State has it all wrong and you are correct?  What if we HAVE hit bottom, and the market spikes 30% in 2 years.  You just finished putting on a new deck, you still have some boxes in the garage you haven't even UNPACKED yet... and the "partner" wants to sell and collect his check.  Now you have to look to uproot your fam and buy a new home, in an inflated market mind you.  You too will be paying 30% more for your next house, there goes a good chunk if not all of your earnings.

There are so many possibilites of this going sour.  Partner with someone on investment property.  Set up an LLC, find a porperty that will turn a positive cash flow, then you invest with a partner.  But I urge you to think about what it would be like to have someone making decisions that affect your life with nothing but profit on their mind. 

Dangerous at worst,

really unpleasent and very stressful at best. 

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2009, 03:25:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).
Again your math is seriously off. You will in no place I know find a bank that is going to fit a $300,000 mortgage and property tax payments and home owner's insurance and PMI into a $2000 a month payment. It's just not going to happen.

$300,000 at at a modest 6.75% given the risk associated with the lack of down payment and lack of income is a P&I of just about $2000. Add some hefty taxes for the areas you discussed, a couple grand or more for home owners insurance and nearly three grand in PMI and you're talking nearly another $600-$900 of added monthly money going into an escrow account at the lender to take care of those things and you are looking at more than $2600-$3000 a month mortgage payment. Heat, electric, cable, internet, food, and other and you really think you are going to have enough to live on?

Also, in this partnership your brother will be on the note and deed but will be used as income verification only and his credit will not be looked at? What type of loan are you looking at. I don't see a bank doing any of this.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2009, 03:26:24 PM »

Offline JSD

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12590
  • Tommy Points: 2159
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).

What do you still owe on the condo, though?  It didn't seem like the $900 in rent you were receiving was all profit.  What would your total house payments (house and condo) be at that point?

I know where your going here...

Look, is my plan bulletproof? Obviously not because nothing is. When I bought my condo it was a risk but so far so good.

I make $1150/month one a 1 year lease.
We pay $950/ Month is Mortgage, fees and taxes

We have an emergency reserve in case our tenants flake that will cover 3 months rent.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2009, 03:29:53 PM »

Offline MetroGlobe

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 650
  • Tommy Points: 74
Well, he's GOING to own part of the home, they aren't going to consider his income for purposes of the mortgage if his name's not attached to the deed. 

Where's Roy?  I think we need a legal opinion on if it was even possible to legally structure a partnership to do this. 

If your brother's on the mortgage, but as a passive investor...  I'm wondering how that may impact things like being able to defer capital gains on the house's eventual sale. 

The new place will be listed as his primary residence for loan purposes.

Fraud.  Blatantly.  At the loan closing everyone involved has to sign an "Affadavit of Occupancy".  In this case your brother would be doing so fraudulently.

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2009, 03:34:21 PM »

Offline ChampKind

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3079
  • Tommy Points: 665
  • I left Indiana. Because it was horrible.
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).

What do you still owe on the condo, though?  It didn't seem like the $900 in rent you were receiving was all profit.  What would your total house payments (house and condo) be at that point?

I know where your going here...

Look, is my plan bulletproof? Obviously not because nothing is. When I bought my condo it was a risk but so far so good.

I make $1150/month one a 1 year lease.
We pay $950/ Month is Mortgage, fees and taxes

We have an emergency reserve in case our tenants flake that will cover 3 months rent.

So you'll still be committing $3000+ a month just in mortgage payments alone?  Even if you subtract $1000 from rent, that's over half your monthly income.  It just seems like a gigantic risk that will eliminate your savings for a long time to come.  If you were to do this, you'd flying without a safety net - the risks outweigh the rewards here.
CB Draft Bucks: Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Tobias Harris, Zach LaVine, Aaron Afflalo, Jeff Green, Donatas Motiejunas, Jarrett Jack, Frank Kaminsky, Lance Stephenson, JaVale McGee, Shane Larkin, Nick Young

DKC Bucks. Also terrible.

http://www.anchorofgold.com

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2009, 03:37:45 PM »

Offline JSD

  • NCE
  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12590
  • Tommy Points: 2159
;D Let me try this again:

Yes, I would just need the added income verification. My partner (brother) would then sit back and enjoy the equity built from the investment.

We already have the 2nd unit rented out to my friend's Joe and Emily for $900-$1000

A $300,000 two unit mortgage + monthly taxes = Roughly $2000/ month - 900 (joe and Em's contribution) = $1100/monthly payment

Which is only $200 more a week than my condo cost me. It's definitely doable I just need to find a solid duplex and get pre-approved (for that price range anyway).
Again your math is seriously off. You will in no place I know find a bank that is going to fit a $300,000 mortgage and property tax payments and home owner's insurance and PMI into a $2000 a month payment. It's just not going to happen.

$300,000 at at a modest 6.75% given the risk associated with the lack of down payment and lack of income is a P&I of just about $2000. Add some hefty taxes for the areas you discussed, a couple grand or more for home owners insurance and nearly three grand in PMI and you're talking nearly another $600-$900 of added monthly money going into an escrow account at the lender to take care of those things and you are looking at more than $2600-$3000 a month mortgage payment. Heat, electric, cable, internet, food, and other and you really think you are going to have enough to live on?

Also, in this partnership your brother will be on the note and deed but will be used as income verification only and his credit will not be looked at? What type of loan are you looking at. I don't see a bank doing any of this.

Nick, I don't see how 6.75 is modest (I currently have a 5.6)

I came up with $2150 when including PMI and taxes(4500) at 6 here:

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/mortgagecalc/

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2009, 03:40:36 PM »

Offline MetroGlobe

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 650
  • Tommy Points: 74
Now we must add the criminal risks to the financial risks already mentioned.  Using your brother as additional income is occupancy fraud.  Depending on state laws, jail time and/or a hefty fine could be involved.

Here's a standard definition of occupancy fraud from wiki. .


Occupancy fraud: This occurs where the borrower wishes to obtain a mortgage to acquire an investment property, but states on the loan application that the borrower will occupy the property as the primary residence or as a second home. If undetected, the borrower typically obtains a lower interest rate than was warranted. Because lenders typically charge a higher interest rate for non-owner-occupied properties, which historically have higher delinqency rates, the lender receives insufficient return on capital and is over-exposed to loss relative to what was expected in the transaction. In addition, lenders allow larger loans on owner-occupied homes compared to loans for investment properties. When occupancy fraud occurs, it is likely that taxes on gains are not paid, resulting in additional fraud. It is considered fraud because the borrower has materially misprepresented the risk to the lender to obtain more favorable loan terms.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_fraud

Re: What would you do? (Real Estate Question)
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2009, 03:43:30 PM »

Offline Cman

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13074
  • Tommy Points: 121
So, he wouldn't be chipping in towards the mortgage payments?  In that case, I stand by my assertion that it would be horribly reckless - that's still a $300k mortgage supported by $45k income. 

From your brother's perspective, he stands to make some money if the house does appreciate, but he's taking a lot of risk as well; he's on the hook if you can't make the payments.  It's worse that you say it's your brother, if this DOES go bad, it's one thing to **** up a friendship, another to **** up a family relationship.  Tread VERY cautiously.

Let me echo this. 
Personal experience leads me to believe that it is best to not mix business with family/friends.  Many people think it will be different for them, many end up wrong.
Celtics fan for life.