Ranking Power Forwards and Centers in the NBA for last ten years

[drza44]

My list of power forwards:

1) Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan (tie)

3) Dirk
4) Webber

5) Sheed
6) Amare
7) Pau
8 ) Brand
9) Bosh
10) Boozer (though I'm tempted to put Odom over Boozer)

Re: KG vs Duncan, I think that Duncan was initially more polished/NBA ready than KG as a young player and that playing for Pop next to the Admiral really advanced his learning curve.  But I think KG caught him right around 2002, and since then KG has been the better player.  The differences have never been large in either direction, though, and since Duncan has more hardware I'll put them in a tie despite the fact that I believe Garnett to have been better for the majority of their careers.

[jdpapa3]

Yea, I'd currently rank Duncan slightly ahead of KG. I just think it's unfair to KG to say that he doesn't belong in the discussion. Only reason for putting Duncan ahead is because he could defend PF's and do a better job on Shaq than the Ticket. It really would be interesting if you could change their places on those teams. I'd think KG would have more titles than Duncan if that were the case. It'd be tough to argue against this. Does Duncan really make it out of the WCF's with Hudson, Spree, and Wally? I'd bet no.

Also, those players listed seemed to only flourish on KG's teams...look at where Wally's career has gone as an example.

I'd also argue that Dirk is the best offensive player out of the lot, but his defense drops him considerably. But he hasn't had the greatest of teams around him. That win over the Spurs in the WCF's was quite an accomplishment.

[Fafnir]

I always thought that Duncan was the unquestionable number one. But, after KG joined the C's and I have gotten to see more of his game I really feel that may deserve the ranking more then Duncan. It's hard to say on those two but they are definitely the top 2.

Yeah, I would still give Duncan the edge because of the number of championships.  However, if KG can get 1 to 2 more, it will be a dead heat between the two of them.

They're really dead even stat wise. They're roughly the same offensive effectiveness once they've both played at the 4 full time. Garnett with his jumpers, turn around, and other post moves (if less frequently). Duncan with his bank shot and traditional post game.

Meanwhile both are great defenders and rebounders, with different skill sets. Duncan is better at low post defense. Garnett is better at just about everything else defensively.

I do think the whole "Duncan is the greatest PF ever" is overblown. Because he's become a center at this point in his career.

[GaBerkowitz]

I'd say Duncan did have much better teammates, a much better front office, and much better coaching. However, he is also a better player. I love KG, but Duncan is the best power forward ever to play. Garnett's top five, but not really in Duncan's league. Hurt by circumstances? Yes. But saying he's not as good as Duncan is not a big insult.

I'd disagree. I think the differences between the two are unnoticeable if placed in a vacuum. Had their situations been reversed, we'd be talking about Duncan like people talk about KG, and vice versa

what does that even mean "if they played in a vacuum." thats one of the dumbest things i've ever heard.  Part of what makes a player great is his ability to inspire and get the most out of his teammates, coaches, gm's etc. 

Other than baseball, lining up player v player is tough b/c so much depends on who they are surrounded by.  However I really believe basketball more than any other sport, players should be judged on how they perform when the lights are the brightest, and the pressure is the highest (i.e. championship time) and in this sense (sorry to say it) K.G. isnt Duncan. What makes KG so great, his emotion and intensity,  is his greatest weakness (controlling those emotions at the end of games). 

Some say my reasoning behind Duncan is flawed due to the gap in talent he had surrounding him versus the talent KG had surrounding him for the majority of his career.  And I counter by saying Duncan's greatness enabled that surrounding cast to succeed and win 4 titles.  Not the other way around.

Both are super-duper stars no doubt. First ballot hall of famers no doubt.  However, ultimately players in basketball should be judged on their ability to win titles.  And while KG has his, he still has some catching up to do.

[Fafnir]

Of course KG makes his teammates "better". Did you see the Celtics last year with him and without him? Or the entire 2007-2008 season?

But when you start with below average talent, one player doesn't make a team a title worthy squad. Not when you're in a stacked conference with Shaq/Duncan/Sheed's Blazers/etc.

[drza44]

Part of what makes a player great is his ability to inspire and get the most out of his teammates, coaches, gm's etc. 
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Some say my reasoning behind Duncan is flawed due to the gap in talent he had surrounding him versus the talent KG had surrounding him for the majority of his career.  And I counter by saying Duncan's greatness enabled that surrounding cast to succeed and win 4 titles.  Not the other way around.

But can't you see that this reason is inherently biased?  As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the David Robinson that Tim Duncan played his early years next to is a better player than KG has ever played with in his career.  This had nothing to do with Duncan's ability to inspire, it had everything to do with a freak Robinson injury and the Spurs winning the draft lotto to pair one historic player with another.

On the other hand, you mention getting the most out of teammates.  KG has done that just as much as Duncan has, if not more.  Cassell earned the only All Star appearance of an almost 20-year career next to KG.  Wally owes his All Star appearance to KG.  Hudson owes his big contract to KG.  KG always is among the league leaders in the +/- stats, indicating his teams tend to shine when he's on the court even if they suck elsewise.

The difference is, you can't get blood from a turnip.  David Robinson was an All-Time great.  Ginobili and Parker both would have been prized prospects if the rest of the league was as up on international scouting as the Spurs were at the time.  Yes, I'm positive that playing next to Duncan inspired those players to heights they wouldn't have reached without him.  But the thing is, you can't say that KG was less inspiring because he wasn't able to carry Wally, Hudson and Rasho Nesterovic to the same heights.  In fact, I'd argue that KG getting a 50+ win season with a supporting cast like this is just as impressive in a "getting the most out of your teammates" sense as winning a title with Duncan's crew.

ETA: Fafnir just said the same thing as I did, but a lot more concisely.

[Celtic]

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Rasheed
5. Webber
6. Elton Brand
7. Pau Gasol
8. Amare
9. Carlos Boozer
10. Antoine Walker

[Eja117]

Since Yao is hurt half the time you can only consider him half as good. So I think someone pointed out he's a 20/10 guy, but it's really more like 10/5 guy who gets paid like a 20/10 guy, so actually I'd say he's more on the list of worst players.

Before you accuse me of being a guy that was burnt on him in a fantasy league or something the answer is.....no I wasn't cause I don't draft players more fragile than my 5ft 2 Euro wife. She could beat the crud out of Yao. She went through child birth. He stubs his toe and misses the season.

[Fafnir]

Before you accuse me of being a guy that was burnt on him in a fantasy league or something the answer is.....no I wasn't cause I don't draft players more fragile than my 5ft 2 Euro wife. She could beat the crud out of Yao. She went through child birth. He stubs his toe and misses the season.

Have you ever fractured your foot?

Ask Kevin McHale how easy it is to play on a fractured foot.

[Eja117]

Before you accuse me of being a guy that was burnt on him in a fantasy league or something the answer is.....no I wasn't cause I don't draft players more fragile than my 5ft 2 Euro wife. She could beat the crud out of Yao. She went through child birth. He stubs his toe and misses the season.

Have you ever fractured your foot?

Ask Kevin McHale how easy it is to play on a fractured foot.

No, possibly cause I'm not fragile like Yao.

[Celtic#9]

1  Scal
2  Duncan
3  KG
4  Dirk
5  Webber
6  Brand
7  Gasol
8  Sheed
9  Wallace
10 Boozer

[Eja117]

1 Duncan
2 Shaq
3 KG
4 Dirk
5 D Howard
6 Boozer
7 Elton Brand
8 Amare
9 Sheed
10 Ben Wallace


11 Bosh

Others to consider ...Gasol, Perk, Okafor, Al Jefferson, Ilgauskas, David West

[liam]

Before you accuse me of being a guy that was burnt on him in a fantasy league or something the answer is.....no I wasn't cause I don't draft players more fragile than my 5ft 2 Euro wife. She could beat the crud out of Yao. She went through child birth. He stubs his toe and misses the season.

Have you ever fractured your foot?

Ask Kevin McHale how easy it is to play on a fractured foot.

McHale played.

[jackson_34]

1. Tim Duncan - Helped the spurs create the latest NBA dynasty, you can't pass over that.
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Cwebb
5. Malone - just for the very few years he played in the backend of his career.
6. Amare
7. J O'neal - Was pretty [dang] good back in the pacer days.
8. Sheeeeed
9. Brand
10. Boozer

[Eja117]

I forgot about J ONiel. I guess I'd put him at 9, and kick off Sheed. Does Artest count?