Dog Behavior (Split from Pierce Twitter thread)

[nickagneta]

If there is an animal expert in the house feel free to correct me but you have to totally dominate it, but not in a cruel way. It is essentially a wolf who wants to know who is alpha male and if you aren't it, he will try to be and dominate his area. Once you have dominated it you have to expose it to people as much as possible in a very careful, gradual way and you have to do this quickly while it's a puppy. If you don't it could get very dangerous. Sooner or later it will get out and if it comes into contact with an 8 year old what happens? You'd much rather it bite the kid than kill the kid and you'd way rather it bark than bite

Actually dominate it but psychologically not physically.

You need to train the dog from a young age and the proper way to do it is through walking it regularly in the correct manner and then training the dog while it is tired. reward proper behavior and correct improper behavior.

Dogs do not understand punishment. Corrective behavior they understand. When done properly, it doesn't matter how big or tough the dog, it will have a submissive personality and remain calm at all times.

When my bro slaps its nose I consider it physical and also we would aggressively pat the other one to show we were bigger, stronger, and not afraid, and surprisingly it really calmed it down.

You are teaching the dog aggression if you slap its nose. If the dog nips it is because it is either insecure, trying to tell you something or is frustrated from not expending enough energy. I dog like a rottweiler or pit bull probably needs to be walked twice a day for 45-60 minutes per walk. When the dog does something wrong immediately correct the action. If a dog nips and you slap it, especially as a puppy, it will think you are playing or fighting with it. These are naturally aggressive dogs. Never teach that.

If the dog nips confront the dog and push it back sternly with your hand to its side. This distracts the dog and causes it to concentrate on you. Use a corrective noise. A shush or a clap of the hands. When the dog hears this they know this is improper behavior. If this behavior continues, then you must dominate the dog physically but not harmfully. Take the dog, put it on its side, hold it down securely near the jaw/neck area and hold him/her there until they submit to you which means that when you let go the dog remains lying on its side. The dog will then understand you are its alpha and will take corrections.

But it is imperative to exercise the dog. Always. A tired dog is a non frustrated dog and is an east to tame and train dog.

Why does my bro seem to get such good results from the slapping? It also follows commands very well, but just gets excited

Your brother is intimidating the dog. This will create an insecure dog and in a breed as powerful and naturally feisty as a rottie or a pit it will work for a time, but eventually you stand the chance of putting that insecure dog into a position where it's natural instincts will take over if it feels too insecure. Those natural instincts are fight, flight or avoidance. Secure and calm and properly trained dogs will always go to the natural instinct of avoidance. But an insecure and improperly trained dog is more likely or fight or flight. If the dog is in the house or an enclosed yard and it is put into a situation where it is feeling insecure, fight becomes the only option and bad things happen.

It might not happen for a while but what happens if your brother isn't around and a delivery guy enter the yard to bring a package and the dog starts feeling insecure around the scent of someone who has never been on the property? That dog could attack and you brother has a lawsuit on his hands and the dog is going to be put down.

If you are not very, very knowledgeable about dogs and how to train them, especially larger aggressive breeds like Dobermans, Rottweilers, Bulldogs, Pit Bulls, Akitas, and larger sized Terriers, never get one of those dogs or do so and pay for professional trainers to help you train the dog. And stay away from trainers who don't use animal psychology as a training tool.

[Eja117]

Pit Bulls' disposition (and all dogs really) has to do with how they are trained.

Agree completely.  While there are breeds that are more dangerous than others, due to their size, or particular characteristics, the biggest reason certain Dogs are more prone to attack people or other animals is because of the way they are brought up. 

Let's face it, a lot of the people who own Pit Bulls, own them because they want an aggressive dog, who can protect them.  They often train them to be aggressive, or in many cases, abuse them, making them aggressive.

Now, of course, these are still animals, and no matter how well trained they are, if you treat them in the wrong way, or threaten them, they will fight back.  And this is where big, strong dogs like Pit Bulls can be dangerous, and why you should not have them around kids (who think playing with them involves pulling on their ears and trying to ride them), but if you don't abuse the dogs, and respect them for what they are, a pit bull can be just as safe as any other dog.

This is the nature vs nurture agrument and while nurture may be the biggest part nature is pretty big too. At least all other things equal.

Plus I'd point out there's a certain amount of unnatural selection here. Take my bro's pit bulls. The bad one got put down and won't breed. The good one didn't and...was fixed but you see my point.

A generation later your point becomes more valid, but it took a nasty event to make that come true.

[Eja117]

If there is an animal expert in the house feel free to correct me but you have to totally dominate it, but not in a cruel way. It is essentially a wolf who wants to know who is alpha male and if you aren't it, he will try to be and dominate his area. Once you have dominated it you have to expose it to people as much as possible in a very careful, gradual way and you have to do this quickly while it's a puppy. If you don't it could get very dangerous. Sooner or later it will get out and if it comes into contact with an 8 year old what happens? You'd much rather it bite the kid than kill the kid and you'd way rather it bark than bite

Actually dominate it but psychologically not physically.

You need to train the dog from a young age and the proper way to do it is through walking it regularly in the correct manner and then training the dog while it is tired. reward proper behavior and correct improper behavior.

Dogs do not understand punishment. Corrective behavior they understand. When done properly, it doesn't matter how big or tough the dog, it will have a submissive personality and remain calm at all times.

When my bro slaps its nose I consider it physical and also we would aggressively pat the other one to show we were bigger, stronger, and not afraid, and surprisingly it really calmed it down.

You are teaching the dog aggression if you slap its nose. If the dog nips it is because it is either insecure, trying to tell you something or is frustrated from not expending enough energy. I dog like a rottweiler or pit bull probably needs to be walked twice a day for 45-60 minutes per walk. When the dog does something wrong immediately correct the action. If a dog nips and you slap it, especially as a puppy, it will think you are playing or fighting with it. These are naturally aggressive dogs. Never teach that.

If the dog nips confront the dog and push it back sternly with your hand to its side. This distracts the dog and causes it to concentrate on you. Use a corrective noise. A shush or a clap of the hands. When the dog hears this they know this is improper behavior. If this behavior continues, then you must dominate the dog physically but not harmfully. Take the dog, put it on its side, hold it down securely near the jaw/neck area and hold him/her there until they submit to you which means that when you let go the dog remains lying on its side. The dog will then understand you are its alpha and will take corrections.

But it is imperative to exercise the dog. Always. A tired dog is a non frustrated dog and is an east to tame and train dog.

Why does my bro seem to get such good results from the slapping? It also follows commands very well, but just gets excited

Your brother is intimidating the dog. This will create an insecure dog and in a breed as powerful and naturally feisty as a rottie or a pit it will work for a time, but eventually you stand the chance of putting that insecure dog into a position where it's natural instincts will take over if it feels too insecure. Those natural instincts are fight, flight or avoidance. Secure and calm and properly trained dogs will always go to the natural instinct of avoidance. But an insecure and improperly trained dog is more likely or fight or flight. If the dog is in the house or an enclosed yard and it is put into a situation where it is feeling insecure, fight becomes the only option and bad things happen.

It might not happen for a while but what happens if your brother isn't around and a delivery guy enter the yard to bring a package and the dog starts feeling insecure around the scent of someone who has never been on the property? That dog could attack and you brother has a lawsuit on his hands and the dog is going to be put down.

If you are not very, very knowledgeable about dogs and how to train them, especially larger aggressive breeds like Dobermans, Rottweilers, Bulldogs, Pit Bulls, Akitas, and larger sized Terriers, never get one of those dogs or do so and pay for professional trainers to help you train the dog. And stay away from trainers who don't use animal psychology as a training tool.

But wait a second. There are many events where dogs attack unprovoked someone who's not even near them. It's not a matter of flight in those scenarios. When the two rotts went after me I wasn't near their property and the grandma wasn't any threat to the dog when it chomped her.

[nickagneta]

If there is an animal expert in the house feel free to correct me but you have to totally dominate it, but not in a cruel way. It is essentially a wolf who wants to know who is alpha male and if you aren't it, he will try to be and dominate his area. Once you have dominated it you have to expose it to people as much as possible in a very careful, gradual way and you have to do this quickly while it's a puppy. If you don't it could get very dangerous. Sooner or later it will get out and if it comes into contact with an 8 year old what happens? You'd much rather it bite the kid than kill the kid and you'd way rather it bark than bite

Actually dominate it but psychologically not physically.

You need to train the dog from a young age and the proper way to do it is through walking it regularly in the correct manner and then training the dog while it is tired. reward proper behavior and correct improper behavior.

Dogs do not understand punishment. Corrective behavior they understand. When done properly, it doesn't matter how big or tough the dog, it will have a submissive personality and remain calm at all times.

When my bro slaps its nose I consider it physical and also we would aggressively pat the other one to show we were bigger, stronger, and not afraid, and surprisingly it really calmed it down.

You are teaching the dog aggression if you slap its nose. If the dog nips it is because it is either insecure, trying to tell you something or is frustrated from not expending enough energy. I dog like a rottweiler or pit bull probably needs to be walked twice a day for 45-60 minutes per walk. When the dog does something wrong immediately correct the action. If a dog nips and you slap it, especially as a puppy, it will think you are playing or fighting with it. These are naturally aggressive dogs. Never teach that.

If the dog nips confront the dog and push it back sternly with your hand to its side. This distracts the dog and causes it to concentrate on you. Use a corrective noise. A shush or a clap of the hands. When the dog hears this they know this is improper behavior. If this behavior continues, then you must dominate the dog physically but not harmfully. Take the dog, put it on its side, hold it down securely near the jaw/neck area and hold him/her there until they submit to you which means that when you let go the dog remains lying on its side. The dog will then understand you are its alpha and will take corrections.

But it is imperative to exercise the dog. Always. A tired dog is a non frustrated dog and is an east to tame and train dog.

Why does my bro seem to get such good results from the slapping? It also follows commands very well, but just gets excited

Your brother is intimidating the dog. This will create an insecure dog and in a breed as powerful and naturally feisty as a rottie or a pit it will work for a time, but eventually you stand the chance of putting that insecure dog into a position where it's natural instincts will take over if it feels too insecure. Those natural instincts are fight, flight or avoidance. Secure and calm and properly trained dogs will always go to the natural instinct of avoidance. But an insecure and improperly trained dog is more likely or fight or flight. If the dog is in the house or an enclosed yard and it is put into a situation where it is feeling insecure, fight becomes the only option and bad things happen.

It might not happen for a while but what happens if your brother isn't around and a delivery guy enter the yard to bring a package and the dog starts feeling insecure around the scent of someone who has never been on the property? That dog could attack and you brother has a lawsuit on his hands and the dog is going to be put down.

If you are not very, very knowledgeable about dogs and how to train them, especially larger aggressive breeds like Dobermans, Rottweilers, Bulldogs, Pit Bulls, Akitas, and larger sized Terriers, never get one of those dogs or do so and pay for professional trainers to help you train the dog. And stay away from trainers who don't use animal psychology as a training tool.

But wait a second. There are many events where dogs attack unprovoked someone who's not even near them. It's not a matter of flight in those scenarios. When the two rotts went after me I wasn't near their property and the grandma wasn't any threat to the dog when it chomped her.

Each dog is different and when put into a position to make one of their natural instinctive choices they could make any of the three. It matters not that these dogs weren't confined. They chose fight rather than flight. Teaching dogs with aggressive techniques will tend to put dogs into a position to chose to fight first sometimes.

Every dog is different and every dog makes their decisions differently just like every human does. I'm not saying they will choose in any set order. Only that if you cut down on a dogs choices by not properly training them and then confining them to a certain area, the results are very predictable.

[KungPoweChicken]

99% of dogs that will attack someone they know have been abused or neglected. There is the chance that some dogs will attack strangers, just like any other creature in this world will, including humans. But let's face it: Dogs are abused by humans in outrageous amounts and in sickening displays. I'm always baffled when someone cries confusion and hatred when a dog attacks them when they tie it up, feed it dried up kibble, show it no affection, and let it rot without exercise. You can't throw a dog a bone and pet its head every once in a while, and think you've done a good job; it takes commitment, it takes dedication, and if you're not up for it, then you shouldn't have a dog. I don't think I'm better than any dog, any animal for that matter. Any animal I've ever housed is my equal, not something I show off to my family and friends for kicks.

[nickagneta]

99% of dogs that will attack someone they know have been abused or neglected. There is the chance that some dogs will attack strangers, just like any other creature in this world will, including humans. But let's face it: Dogs are abused by humans in outrageous amounts and in sickening displays. I'm always baffled when someone cries confusion and hatred when a dog attacks them when they tie it up, feed it dried up kibble, show it no affection, and let it rot without exercise. You can't throw a dog a bone and pet its head every once in a while, and think you've done a good job; it takes commitment, it takes dedication, and if you're not up for it, then you shouldn't have a dog. I don't think I'm better than any dog, any animal for that matter. Any animal I've ever housed is my equal, not something I show off to my family and friends for kicks.

Amen brother.

TP4U

[ACF]

99% of dogs that will attack someone they know have been abused or neglected. There is the chance that some dogs will attack strangers, just like any other creature in this world will, including humans. But let's face it: Dogs are abused by humans in outrageous amounts and in sickening displays. I'm always baffled when someone cries confusion and hatred when a dog attacks them when they tie it up, feed it dried up kibble, show it no affection, and let it rot without exercise. You can't throw a dog a bone and pet its head every once in a while, and think you've done a good job; it takes commitment, it takes dedication, and if you're not up for it, then you shouldn't have a dog. I don't think I'm better than any dog, any animal for that matter. Any animal I've ever housed is my equal, not something I show off to my family and friends for kicks.

Amen brother.

TP4U

I'll co-sign that.

[nickagneta]

As everyone here must know, I own a Boxer, Ruby, and boxers tend to be the most energetic breed of dogs there are. It is said that they are basically puppies until they are 7 years old because they have the everyday energy level of most every other breeds puppies. It is because they are a working dog and were bred to work long hours.

Hence, in order to keep my dog well balanced I have to walk her twice a day for over four miles per walk. She is 70 pounds of pure muscle and most people get intimidated around her. Except, she's a big mushball because she lets off all her energy during those walks, she is well loved, she is well trained, and because Boxers are an intelligent breed, much like German Shepards, Poodles, Labs, Huskies, Collies, Retrievers and certain terriers.

You very seldom will go wrong getting a famiy dog that is one of the above breeds. But...... with a dog comes the same responsibilities as that of a parent. You need to raise that dog with discipline, exercise, love, affection, rules and boundaries. If one isn't willing to make those sacrifices of love, don't get a dog.

[Eja117]

Nick a couple guys here have said things to the effect of "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners" and "a dog has to be trained not to do certain things" and you were saying you need almost professional help to effectively own a pit.

But that's just the thing. A dog that will kill a kid cause you didn't intensively train it is a bad dog.

I mean lets say you have a guy that owns a few dogs over his life time. Predictable dogs with various needs. A smart collie. A smart protective German Shepherd. A retriever. Terrier. Then gets a more challenging breed like a hound of some sort that likes to run. A Dalmation maybe. In every case he treats them fine, walks them, gets them to follow commands, not bite kids when they pull ears, yadda yadda. That's not a bad owner.

So he buys a pit. Tries the same stuff a little harder. Doesn't work. Dog chomps a kid or something cause the kid was walking within eye sight and it hadn't had its walk that morning. Not a bad owner. Bad dog.

People shouldn't have to live around animals like that. That's not so much of a dog as a wolf. Wolves aren't great pets in our modern society because they don't allow for human error.

These aren't the only pets I think people shouldn't really be having. I've met two guys with big huge constrictor snakes and one was clearly doing a better job than the other. Those snakes live 30 years and are predators, just like wolves. (I'm not saying a little sheltie doggy is a predator but you know what I mean).  Big huge Iguana things with claws. I don't know much about monkeys.  I don't know much about breeds of cats.
There's just a bunch of animals people generally shouldn't have but not a lot of controls.

[nickagneta]

Nick a couple guys here have said things to the effect of "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners" and "a dog has to be trained not to do certain things" and you were saying you need almost professional help to effectively own a pit.

But that's just the thing. A dog that will kill a kid cause you didn't intensively train it is a bad dog.

I mean lets say you have a guy that owns a few dogs over his life time. Predictable dogs with various needs. A smart collie. A smart protective German Shepherd. A retriever. Terrier. Then gets a more challenging breed like a hound of some sort that likes to run. A Dalmation maybe. In every case he treats them fine, walks them, gets them to follow commands, not bite kids when they pull ears, yadda yadda. That's not a bad owner.

So he buys a pit. Tries the same stuff a little harder. Doesn't work. Dog chomps a kid or something cause the kid was walking within eye sight and it hadn't had its walk that morning. Not a bad owner. Bad dog.

People shouldn't have to live around animals like that. That's not so much of a dog as a wolf. Wolves aren't great pets in our modern society because they don't allow for human error.

These aren't the only pets I think people shouldn't really be having. I've met two guys with big huge constrictor snakes and one was clearly doing a better job than the other. Those snakes live 30 years and are predators, just like wolves. (I'm not saying a little sheltie doggy is a predator but you know what I mean).  Big huge Iguana things with claws. I don't know much about monkeys.  I don't know much about breeds of cats.
There's just a bunch of animals people generally shouldn't have but not a lot of controls.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Your assumption is that what works on those other dogs won't work on a pit. But that is wrong. Just because some breeds are more difficult to train doesn't mean that they are bad. It just means it takes a greater level of knowledge and experience to train them properly.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience with a dog but that experience has set you to not accept what is true. Dogs, no matter the size, will only be as good a dog as they are trained to be. Great danes and English Mastiffs are huge, scary looking stronger dogs. They are all big mushes. Easily trained and very gentle. Some smaller breeds tend to have the biggest attitudes and can be difficult.

But if you train dogs properly and love them and exercise them properly, any and every dog will be your best friend in the world.

[Chris]

I mean lets say you have a guy that owns a few dogs over his life time. Predictable dogs with various needs. A smart collie. A smart protective German Shepherd. A retriever. Terrier. Then gets a more challenging breed like a hound of some sort that likes to run. A Dalmation maybe. In every case he treats them fine, walks them, gets them to follow commands, not bite kids when they pull ears, yadda yadda. That's not a bad owner.

So he buys a pit. Tries the same stuff a little harder. Doesn't work. Dog chomps a kid or something cause the kid was walking within eye sight and it hadn't had its walk that morning. Not a bad owner. Bad dog.

People shouldn't have to live around animals like that. That's not so much of a dog as a wolf. Wolves aren't great pets in our modern society because they don't allow for human error.

The problem is, this is a hypothetical situation to support your case, rather than the actual case.

I agree that there are bad dogs.  There are bad dogs of every breed, just like there are bad people.

I'm biased, my sister works for the animal shelter that has taken in a large portion of Michael Vick's dogs, and she has personally fostered several pit bulls.  I have seen Pit Bulls who are "good dogs", and pit bulls that are "bad dogs".  I also have seen good dalmations and bad dalmations.

The fact is, a normal Pit Bull that has been properly trained is not going to chase down children and maul them, just because they are in their line of vision.  Now, if a kid come up and punches the dog in the back, yeah, he is probably going to get bitten, and IMO, he [dang] well deserves it, and will hopefully learn a lesson, but I do not think responsible dog owners should have to suffer (or we should be trying to kill out a certain breed of dog), because of neglectful, or malicious owners.

Now, perhaps they should be regulating much more strongly who can own dogs, or particularly large or dangerous breeds...but that would be as far as I would go.

[Eja117]

Nick a couple guys here have said things to the effect of "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners" and "a dog has to be trained not to do certain things" and you were saying you need almost professional help to effectively own a pit.

But that's just the thing. A dog that will kill a kid cause you didn't intensively train it is a bad dog.

I mean lets say you have a guy that owns a few dogs over his life time. Predictable dogs with various needs. A smart collie. A smart protective German Shepherd. A retriever. Terrier. Then gets a more challenging breed like a hound of some sort that likes to run. A Dalmation maybe. In every case he treats them fine, walks them, gets them to follow commands, not bite kids when they pull ears, yadda yadda. That's not a bad owner.

So he buys a pit. Tries the same stuff a little harder. Doesn't work. Dog chomps a kid or something cause the kid was walking within eye sight and it hadn't had its walk that morning. Not a bad owner. Bad dog.

People shouldn't have to live around animals like that. That's not so much of a dog as a wolf. Wolves aren't great pets in our modern society because they don't allow for human error.

These aren't the only pets I think people shouldn't really be having. I've met two guys with big huge constrictor snakes and one was clearly doing a better job than the other. Those snakes live 30 years and are predators, just like wolves. (I'm not saying a little sheltie doggy is a predator but you know what I mean).  Big huge Iguana things with claws. I don't know much about monkeys.  I don't know much about breeds of cats.
There's just a bunch of animals people generally shouldn't have but not a lot of controls.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Your assumption is that what works on those other dogs won't work on a pit. But that is wrong. Just because some breeds are more difficult to train doesn't mean that they are bad. It just means it takes a greater level of knowledge and experience to train them properly.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience with a dog but that experience has set you to not accept what is true. Dogs, no matter the size, will only be as good a dog as they are trained to be. Great danes and English Mastiffs are huge, scary looking stronger dogs. They are all big mushes. Easily trained and very gentle. Some smaller breeds tend to have the biggest attitudes and can be difficult.

But if you train dogs properly and love them and exercise them properly, any and every dog will be your best friend in the world.

I completely agree with you and that is exactly my point. People shouldn't be owning animals that you have to be Sigfried and Roy to own and not have anything bad happen. You can't be like "Oh it's a fine breed. You have to be a dog whisperer to own it or it might kill someone, but that's not the dog's fault". On some level I have to interpret "properly" in some breeds to be "excessively".

Ultimately they are wolves. They come from the same genus and species. Some are more wolfish than others and wolves aren't animals that just anyone can own if you just do the right things.

They are wolves, right? And wolves aren't good pets to own, right? And why is that? Because there are fundamental differences between a wolf and a poodle. It's like guns. Some are more dangerous than others. Some are "bad" to own, whereas others are not as bad. And you can't change an uzi into a deringer. Yes, you can clean them, and you can educate yourself, and you can do all the right things, but as soon as any human error at all comes into the picture the consequences are totally different. That is because one is a bad gun to own and the other is nowhere near as bad no matter how good you are.

Let me put it slightly differently. Humans own dogs. Many breeds have incidents. One breed has more incidents. The human is the constant. The dog is the variable. The variable is the bad thing not the constant.  The dog is good or bad in relation to us, not the other way around.

[nickagneta]

Who said you had to be some dog whispering sevant in order to be able to train a dog like a pit bull. You just need a bit more knowledge. It's like if you know how to drive that's great but does it mean two minutes after getting your license at 16, when all you know how to drive is an automatic transmission, you are going to go out and buy a $250000 stick shift sports car. Does it make all expensive sports cars bad because people who don't really know how to drive them can't?

It's the same logic you are using and it is wrong. All dogs are good. But every dog was bred for certain purposes which makes their handling different. Just because you need some extra knowledge in order to properly keep a certain breed healthy and balanced, doesn't mean the breed is bad.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience but it is fairly obvious that you are allowing that experience to prejudge an entire section of breeds with little to no real knowledge about them or dogs in general. You somply or uninformed on this subject.

[Eja117]

Who said you had to be some dog whispering sevant in order to be able to train a dog like a pit bull. You just need a bit more knowledge. It's like if you know how to drive that's great but does it mean two minutes after getting your license at 16, when all you know how to drive is an automatic transmission, you are going to go out and buy a $250000 stick shift sports car. Does it make all expensive sports cars bad because people who don't really know how to drive them can't?

It's the same logic you are using and it is wrong. All dogs are good. But every dog was bred for certain purposes which makes their handling different. Just because you need some extra knowledge in order to properly keep a certain breed healthy and balanced, doesn't mean the breed is bad.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience but it is fairly obvious that you are allowing that experience to prejudge an entire section of breeds with little to no real knowledge about them or dogs in general. You somply or uninformed on this subject.

First off I didn't exactly have the bad experience with the pit bull. Grandma did. I had the bead experience with two rotts, but easily fought them off. I'm not as sure about rotts. I haven't had any bad experiences with Tigers or constrictor snakes but I'm against people owning them too. What I've seen is the potential consequences of a dog who had a good owner, albeit after a horribly bad one.

In your car example there are definitley bad cars. A car with a terrible safety record. A car that you have to put juuuuussssttt the right amount of oil in or it will burst into fire. A car that if you make a quick jerk to swerve will flip. Bad cars.

On the one hand you say that the same thing that works on one dog will work on any dog, but then say you need to do more of it with more knowledge, but that's not the same thing. You also say all dogs are different and will react differently. In the example of me walking home and the dogs attacking me it may very well have been a bad owner. But also bad dogs. Would a dalmatian with the exact same owner and history have done the same thing as those dogs? If not that makes the dalmatian a good dog and the rotts bad dogs.

I think my brother is a good owner who spends a lot of time with the dog and works hard on it. He is no lazy owner. If the dog does something bad it won't be because he was a bad owner. It will be because it is a bad dog. If the dog is so unforgiving that it bites people because you only walked it 2 miles a day or something instead of 4 or because you handled it only a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10 instead of a 10 then it's a bad dog.

You say every dog was bred for a certain purpose, which affects how you handle them, but if the dog was bred for a bad purpose, so now you have to handle them like a nuclear weapon, that is a bad dog.

Here is my question to you.  I think that pit bull that chomped grandma had a horrid experience. It acted far nastier to men, small children, and grandma then it did to women. And for some strange reason it acted way worse in our house than in a college town.  Then it got out and attacked grandma unprovoked from three rooms away even after a long walk.  Do you think a collie or a poodle or every other breed of dog with the same history as that one would have done the same thing?  If not then it was a bad dog.

[Eja117]

Also when I say "pit bull" I don't mean all pit bulls. Just that the average spectrum is a more dangerous less forgiving one on average.

You seem to be saying it's just high maitenance, but that's my point. High maitnenace where you do average good maitenance and then something bad happens is a worse dog than low maitenance