Author Topic: What our 09-10 bench will need (Read 8140 times)

yoursweatersux · « **on:** May 31, 2009, 08:55:00 PM »

We already have the best starting 5 in the NBA. If we can supply the right type of bench players for next year's team, we'll be unstoppable.

Here's a look at what we're working with:

Rajon Rondo/???
Ray Allen/Eddie House
Paul Pierce/Bill Walker
Kevin Garnett/Scalabrine (Leon Powe after all-star break)
Kendrick Perkins/???

So it's obvious that our two real question marks are the backup pg position and center position.

Assumptions:
1. Big Baby and Marbury won't be coming back.
2.Scal will be able to fill in behind KG until Powe comes back from injury, thus making it unnecessary to find another backup power forward.
3. Eddie House is coming back
4. Bill Walker is ready to take some major minutes from Pierce.

Number four is pretty clearly the largest assumption, and the most arguable. Personally, I think Billy showed some real potential in the limited minutes he was in last year. He shot at a very high percentage, and was averaging over 14 points per 36 minutes. He's athletic too, so he has the tools to be a good defensive player. He's already a better option than Tony Allen, and has plenty of room to grow. Playing him would a)develop him as a player b)allow the team to concentrate their acquisition efforts on more important pieces for our bench.

So what does this mean?

Problem #1:
Looking at our existing bench lineup (Eddie, Billy, Scal) there is an absolutely GLARING deficiency: defense. Eddie plays with hustle, but lacks height and can't stay with somebody off the dribble. Billy is young, and the most difficult thing for young players to learn is defense. Scal is good with his feet and makes a surprising number of good defensive plays, but he is prone to getting taken off the dribble by athletic players.

Most obvious solution:
We need to fill our center position with a shot-blocker. Since our bench will be taken off the dribble repeatedly, this is our biggest need. A good shot-blocker can make up for poor defensive play from everybody else. Anything else we get out of our bench center will just be an added bonus.

Problem #2:
While Scal's presence during the regular season will alleviate this problem somewhat, Marbury's shaky outside shot exposed that our bench was sorely lacking range. Teams sunk in and doubled off of Marbury regularly, which hurt the bench offense pretty badly. The only (semi) reliable play was a drive and kick to Big Baby, who as we assumed won't even be here next year. It's no wonder that our bench scored so few points. Last point on this issue: when Powe returns this problem will be even worse.

Most obvious solution:
We need a backup pg that can really shoot the 3. This will relieve the pressure off of everybody else, especially guys like Powe who need space to be effective. Also, it forces opposing teams into a tough decision: do they stick their best off-the-ball defender onto House or our point guard?

Conclusion:
Our bench needs two things: range and shot blocking. Danny Ainge should spend all of his effort on acquiring two players that can fill those roles. If they bring more than range and shot blocking to the table, all the better.

PosImpos · « **Reply #1 on:** June 01, 2009, 01:12:57 AM »

We also need at least one good on ball defender off the bench for opposing stars. We need a guy like Pietrus / Dahntay Jones / Posey etc.

ballaholic · « **Reply #2 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:51:28 AM »

Not just our team, bur every team needs a solid bench. What is a solid bench? A solid bench includes three guys who can score and two other guys who are determined to play defense. To me, you need a good, offensibly versital, back-up point guard, you need a swingman who can score and shut down the opposing stars and you need a veteran big-man who can hit mid-range shots and score in the post. For example:

(Talking about the bench)
PG: Kirk Hinrich, Anthony Johnson, Anthony Carter
SG: Ime Udoka, Dahntay Jones
SF: Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Ronald Murray, Matt Barnes
PF: Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, Drew Gooden
C : Joel Pryzbilla, Kwame Brown

*These are the three key guys who can get it done offensibly
These are the two other guys who are there to play defense and may fall out of the rotation in the playoffs

So, I say we (the Celtics) have to try to get the Anthonys (Johnson aand Carter) first, and if that doesn't happen, we have to re-consider Marbury. Then we should try to get Hill or Barnes (I think we shouldn't take Marion to the bench as he wasn't happy being the third guy in Phoenix), we could get them without the MLE. So, after having the PG and the SF we gotta get a big. I dear to say that McDyess doesn't want to play for Boston, so i jump to Rasheed. He'd be a great back-up with his scoring ability and I say hi should be the number one guy for as to get (assuming that he'd "settle" to the MLE). If he doesn't ("settle"), we can always try Drew Gooden.

That gives us three important pieces to our bench, then we should focus to the role-players.

kenmaine · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2009, 04:21:30 AM »

TP to OP. Good, well thought out post.
Some of those ???s are kind of scary, but that's probably because we all want 10 all-stars on the team.
Couple of points, just my opinions. 1) Walker has not impressed me at all, other than as a possible dunk contest winner. 2) If the C's are not planning to keep Big Baby, then a trade(if it can be done within all the contract and salary cap rules) would be preferable to letting him walk- his value is probably as high right now as it will ever be. He does lots of things really well, but he has a two inch vertical leap, and is an injury waiting to happen.

Anyway, I'll be rooting for the Magic for the next couple of weeks, and looking ahead to next season.

CoachBo · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2009, 07:39:20 AM »

Quote from: PosImpos on June 01, 2009, 01:12:57 AM

We also need at least one good on ball defender off the bench for opposing stars. We need a guy like Pietrus / Dahntay Jones / Posey etc.

Exactly. TP to you.

Now, as for Walker, given his youth and the immaturity of his game, as displayed in college, I think that there's little or no evidence to suggest he's ready for major minutes. He's going to need at least one more and possibly two years of transition tutoring to the NBA game to be ready to play.

RockinRyA · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2009, 07:50:50 AM »

in my opinion if we get either sheed or dice for the mle, then trade the pruitt,ta,scal and giddens for nocioni, it would improve our team dramatically

if we can get grant hill too for the lle then much better

yoursweatersux · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2009, 02:29:10 PM »

Quote from: ballaholic on June 01, 2009, 03:51:28 AM

Not just our team, bur every team needs a solid bench. What is a solid bench? A solid bench includes three guys who can score and two other guys who are determined to play defense. To me, you need a good, offensibly versital, back-up point guard, you need a swingman who can score and shut down the opposing stars and you need a veteran big-man who can hit mid-range shots and score in the post. For example:

(Talking about the bench)
PG: Kirk Hinrich, Anthony Johnson, Anthony Carter
SG: Ime Udoka, Dahntay Jones
SF: Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Ronald Murray, Matt Barnes
PF: Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, Drew Gooden
C : Joel Pryzbilla, Kwame Brown

*These are the three key guys who can get it done offensibly
These are the two other guys who are there to play defense and may fall out of the rotation in the playoffs

So, I say we (the Celtics) have to try to get the Anthonys (Johnson aand Carter) first, and if that doesn't happen, we have to re-consider Marbury. Then we should try to get Hill or Barnes (I think we shouldn't take Marion to the bench as he wasn't happy being the third guy in Phoenix), we could get them without the MLE. So, after having the PG and the SF we gotta get a big. I dear to say that McDyess doesn't want to play for Boston, so i jump to Rasheed. He'd be a great back-up with his scoring ability and I say hi should be the number one guy for as to get (assuming that he'd "settle" to the MLE). If he doesn't ("settle"), we can always try Drew Gooden.

That gives us three important pieces to our bench, then we should focus to the role-players.

Anthony Johnson would be a decent option. But Anthony Carter wouldn't work at all, for the reasons I stated in the original post. He can't shoot 3's to save his life, and he's 6-1, which would be a horrible defensive pairing if he was in with House. People would shoot over them all day.

For center, Rasheed would be great, but it's probably unrealistic. And, once again referring to my original post, Drew Gooden can't block shots, which is what we really need from our backup center.

No offense, but I feel like you didn't really listen to the things I said in the original post.

yoursweatersux · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2009, 02:40:21 PM »

And, by the way, I agree that it would be ideal if we could get another veteran small forward to backup Pierce. But I just think that in the order of importance, it goes:

1. shot blocking backup big
2. backup point guard with range
3. backup for Paul Pierce so Billy doesn't have to take that many minutes

Some of you guys said you weren't all that impressed with Bill, but I don't really understand why. He doesn't have much of an outside shot but that's immaterial if our backup point guard can shoot 3's and space things out. He's just like a small forward version of Powe... who needs an outside shot if you can dunk it or lay it up all the time.

Say what you will, but the stats don't lie about his effectiveness. 14.7 point per 36 minutes, while shooting over 62%??? I'll take that any day of the week for a backup small forward.

Brendan · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:13:24 PM »

I don't think its so simple. Generally I think you need three rotation guys off the bench:

third big man
third wing
combo guard

This gives you 8 guys who are playing big minutes (8 guys averaging 30 MPG would play all minutes.)

If House is the combo guard (literally someone who plays at PG and SG, regardless of who he D's up and how he is used offensively) - I think its acceptable to have a wing that's not a great 3PT shooter. However you'd absolutely need someone who is a very good ball handler. On the other hand if Marbury is brought back as the combo guard (moving House to 9th man or if he opts out) - then your wing should absolutely be a reasonable 3pt threat (a la James Posey 2007/8.) In terms of D, ideally the backup wing (presumably playing less minutes than RA and PP) would be able to cover the other teams better wing scorer and spell Pierce and/or Allen.

As for big man - the main thing THIS team should be looking for is a guy who can play next to KG and Perk. This probably means decent range on the J is more of priority than post moves (KG can post up - he just doesn't as much, Perk can't shoot J's), and it means someone who is effective bumping bodies on D. Both KG and Perk give reasonable shot blocking presence, but Perk can be gotten into foul trouble (even when playing good D, like against Howard in ORL series) and KG doesn't like to bang too much. You need a fourth big men that's pretty good to cover for injuries fouls, and gaps in the rotation that necessitate a fourth guy (the better the combo guard and third wing are, the less the fourth guy matters, since you can play small ball with just one big) - so the fourth big should be more of a C if the third guy is a PF and vice versa.

In terms of how we get there - if Marbury will come back on a vet min - he has to be a consideration. No one knows if he'll regain his ability to shoot off the dribble, but his defense was surprisingly good. And a sharp shooting hustle guy like Eddie is a good use of the 9th spot. If Marbury doesn't come back, its unlikely we'll get anyone much better than House in my opinion (PER 15, knows D schemes) versus has beens like the Anthonys. In that case all effort has got to be on getting Grant Hill. (Side note Tracy McGrady is one year younger than Paul Pierce, has been seriously injured about 10 times more often, has played one more year in the league, and has played 90% of the regular season minutes Pierce has, yet he was considered a "younger" alternative to Pierce a couple years back. Yikes.)

My reasonable best case scenario is we do nothing at PG (hey Rondo will see more minutes per game anyways, and Eddie is above average PER), sign Hill to the Vet Min, sign Rasheed to the MLE. I'm open to other big men at the MLE - the poster "Who" has pointed out some new deficiencies in Rasheed's game that seem troubling. However I think if he can accept a reserve role at the MLE, Rasheed will be able to bring his intensity back up.

That would leave the Scal/Tony/JR buffet for use in upgrading spots 10-12.

pengaloo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:19:32 PM »

A lot of us are assuming that Rondo won't get seriously injured next season... he has definitely gotten stronger over the past couple of years, but he's not invincible. I think we definitely need a backup pg if Marbury's not sticking around.

yoursweatersux · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:30:43 PM »

Quote from: pengaloo on June 01, 2009, 03:19:32 PM

A lot of us are assuming that Rondo won't get seriously injured next season... he has definitely gotten stronger over the past couple of years, but he's not invincible. I think we definitely need a backup pg if Marbury's not sticking around.

We definitely need another backup guard. Without one, we can't rest Rondo and Ray Allen at the same time, and then whenever Rondo IS resting, House is the pg (and we all know about his ball handling and defensive deficiencies). And like you just said, if Rondo gets injured, we're royally screwed.

Secondly, there's not a snowball's chance in hell Marbury wants to stick around, and even if he did, we wouldn't be able to afford what he's asking for. This whole "if Marbury comes back" thing is total nonsense. I'm getting a bit tired of it to be honest.

Lucky17 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:42:41 PM »

What about this:

Boston trades Scalabrine, Tony Allen, Gabe Pruitt, JR Giddens, and cash to New Orleans for Antonio Daniels, Hilton Armstrong, and their upcoming 1st rounder?

Boston gets a big, defensive minded guard that can play alongside House (Daniels takes opposing SGs, so House can match up against opposing PGs). Armstrong could benefit from the tutelage of Cliff Ray. The 1st rounder would allow us to recoup a backup point guard or young big (Hansbrough?).

New Orleans shaves a tidy bit of payroll from this, recoups some cash, and also gets to kick the tires on Allen and Giddens. Scal would likely seek a buyout, saving NO even more money (where he'd be free to return to Boston).

Or does NO not get enough in return? Perhaps leave out the draft pick, or Boston sends a future pick along.

pengaloo · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2009, 04:05:21 PM »

Quote from: yoursweatersux on June 01, 2009, 02:40:21 PM

Some of you guys said you weren't all that impressed with Bill, but I don't really understand why. He doesn't have much of an outside shot but that's immaterial if our backup point guard can shoot 3's and space things out. He's just like a small forward version of Powe... who needs an outside shot if you can dunk it or lay it up all the time.

Say what you will, but the stats don't lie about his effectiveness. 14.7 point per 36 minutes, while shooting over 62%??? I'll take that any day of the week for a backup small forward.

I really, really like Billy Walker, but you can't exactly infer his effectiveness from his stats. It seems like he only plays when we're up by 20. The other team most likely has already given up.

He's got a lot of energy and is a lot of fun to watch though. I'm just not so sure how well he can get the job done when it comes down to it..

indeedproceed · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2009, 04:07:10 PM »

My goal for Billy next season is 8pts, 4rbs, 1 stl, 2 PF's, and 1 TO...I think that's realistic.

Fafnir · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2009, 04:14:56 PM »

Quote from: IndeedProceed on June 01, 2009, 04:07:10 PM

My goal for Billy next season is 8pts, 4rbs, 1 stl, 2 PF's, and 1 TO...I think that's realistic.

In what, 20 minutes a game?

Author Topic: What our 09-10 bench will need (Read 8140 times)

What our 09-10 bench will need

yoursweatersux

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

PosImpos

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

ballaholic

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

kenmaine

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

CoachBo

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

RockinRyA

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

yoursweatersux

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

yoursweatersux

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

Brendan

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

pengaloo

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

yoursweatersux

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

Lucky17

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

pengaloo

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

indeedproceed

Re: What our 09-10 bench will need

Fafnir

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