Report: Smith wanted Boston

[BudweiserCeltic]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

[CelticsWhat35]

So without Joe Smith, the Cavs are lucky to get out of the 2nd round, but with him they're a title contender?  Just checking.

[cordobes]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

Because if you have Skinner instead of POB, and especially Skinner with a training camp and an entire season with the team, you're not "desperate" enough to sign Moore instead of waiting for a better player to be available.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

Because if you have Skinner instead of POB, and especially Skinner with a training camp and an entire season with the team, you're not "desperate" enough to sign Moore instead of waiting for a better player to be available.

Again, it makes no differece as it regards Smith. The roster situation would be the same, the financials would be the same, just the only difference is that we have Moore right now instead of Skinner... that's about it.

[cordobes]

So without Joe Smith, the Cavs are lucky to get out of the 2nd round, but with him they're a title contender?  Just checking.

I've explained this multiple times. It's not about how good Joe Smith is. I hope this is clear and I don't have to read 20391838 jokes about how overrated is Joe Smith. If Ben Wallace was healthy, it wouldn't matter, the effect would be very marginal. But without Ben Wallace they were too thin in the frontline to be considered a title contender (consider the fact that Big Z can't produce for more than 25/30 minutes per night, that Hickson is very raw, very bad defensively and a liability on the boards and that Lorenzo Wright is a corpse; also that Pavlovic will probably need a training camp to return to form, what would negate the upside of playing LeBron 20 mpg at the 4).

[cordobes]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

Because if you have Skinner instead of POB, and especially Skinner with a training camp and an entire season with the team, you're not "desperate" enough to sign Moore instead of waiting for a better player to be available.

Again, it makes no differece as it regards Smith. The roster situation would be the same, the financials would be the same, just the only difference is that we have Moore right now instead of Skinner... that's about it.

Really? We didn't pay POB's salary? I had no idea, thanks for the info. Plus, winnsome already explained this: you can't cut Moore now or just shut him down and say "no minutes to you". Bartelstein would be furious and rightly so.

If you don't agree Ainge was desperate, please talk to Chris.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

Because if you have Skinner instead of POB, and especially Skinner with a training camp and an entire season with the team, you're not "desperate" enough to sign Moore instead of waiting for a better player to be available.

Again, it makes no differece as it regards Smith. The roster situation would be the same, the financials would be the same, just the only difference is that we have Moore right now instead of Skinner... that's about it.

Really? We didn't pay POB's salary? I had no idea, thanks for the info. Plus, winnsome already explained this: you can't cut Moore now or just shut him down and say "no minutes to you". Bartelstein would be furious and rightly so.

If you don't agree Ainge was desperate, please talk to Chris.

Are you really understanding the roster situation?

Again, the only difference (up to this point) in your scenario to what actually happened is that we would have Skinner in our roster instead of Moore.

Desperation doesn't come into play. We'd still be in the same position RIGHT NOW in the Smith situation had we signed Skinner instead of POB and passed on Mikki.

And POB doesn't play into this, and in no moment did I insinuate that we didn't pay him. And by the way, Skinner's salary is a bit more expensive than POB's, though really this is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

[CelticsWhat35]

So without Joe Smith, the Cavs are lucky to get out of the 2nd round, but with him they're a title contender?  Just checking.

I've explained this multiple times. It's not about how good Joe Smith is. I hope this is clear and I don't have to read 20391838 jokes about how overrated is Joe Smith. If Ben Wallace was healthy, it wouldn't matter, the effect would be very marginal. But without Ben Wallace they were too thin in the frontline to be considered a title contender (consider the fact that Big Z can't produce for more than 25/30 minutes per night, that Hickson is very raw, very bad defensively and a liability on the boards and that Lorenzo Wright is a corpse; also that Pavlovic will probably need a training camp to return to form, what would negate the upside of playing LeBron 20 mpg at the 4).

The Cavs didn't miss a beat without Big Z and Delonte for a big stretch.  What makes you think losing Ben Wallace would cause the team to crumble to the floor?

[Mr October]

Smith sent signals to Boston and Cleveland. ....And sent signals that he was happy where he was. The Celtics went for the sure thing - Mikki Moore. I'm satisfied with that. Our championship hopes don't lie in the difference between Smith and Moore.

[cordobes]

So without Joe Smith, the Cavs are lucky to get out of the 2nd round, but with him they're a title contender?  Just checking.

I've explained this multiple times. It's not about how good Joe Smith is. I hope this is clear and I don't have to read 20391838 jokes about how overrated is Joe Smith. If Ben Wallace was healthy, it wouldn't matter, the effect would be very marginal. But without Ben Wallace they were too thin in the frontline to be considered a title contender (consider the fact that Big Z can't produce for more than 25/30 minutes per night, that Hickson is very raw, very bad defensively and a liability on the boards and that Lorenzo Wright is a corpse; also that Pavlovic will probably need a training camp to return to form, what would negate the upside of playing LeBron 20 mpg at the 4).

The Cavs didn't miss a beat without Big Z and Delonte for a big stretch.  What makes you think losing Ben Wallace would cause the team to crumble to the floor?

Because they'd be forced to share about 30 minutes between JJ Hickson and Lorenzo Wright and those guys aren't good enough at this point of their careers to play extended roles in the POs. In the playoffs, teams would gameplan to beat them inside. With Z's current limitations, if you get Varejão in foul trouble (and AV is much less effective when he isn't able to play aggressively) you are transforming them in a very vulnerable team (rebounding, defence, etc). And of course they missed those guys - they ranked 1st in off. eff. and def. off. when they went down.

[cordobes]

Really? Was Ainge desperate? Certainly, but it's his own fault, not Smith's. Ainge was desperate because of his dumb decision to sign Patrick O'Bryant (considering the remaining additions - Tony Allen, Cassell, the 2 rookies, i.e., not enough quality on the bench). Had the C's signed another player and not this (alleged) low risk signing, like, say, Skinner (equal salary to POB), we wouldn't be that desperate. At least, not enough to pull the trigger so soon on the backup big man - we would certainly be able to wait and see if someone better would become available.

How is having Skinner over Moore put us in a better position to land Smith?

In both scenarios, we have a big man bench of Powe, Davis, and the other dude.

Because if you have Skinner instead of POB, and especially Skinner with a training camp and an entire season with the team, you're not "desperate" enough to sign Moore instead of waiting for a better player to be available.

Again, it makes no differece as it regards Smith. The roster situation would be the same, the financials would be the same, just the only difference is that we have Moore right now instead of Skinner... that's about it.

Really? We didn't pay POB's salary? I had no idea, thanks for the info. Plus, winnsome already explained this: you can't cut Moore now or just shut him down and say "no minutes to you". Bartelstein would be furious and rightly so.

If you don't agree Ainge was desperate, please talk to Chris.

Are you really understanding the roster situation?

Again, the only difference (up to this point) in your scenario to what actually happened is that we would have Skinner in our roster instead of Moore.

Desperation doesn't come into play. We'd still be in the same position RIGHT NOW in the Smith situation had we signed Skinner instead of POB and passed on Mikki.

And POB doesn't play into this, and in no moment did I insinuate that we didn't pay him. And by the way, Skinner's salary is a bit more expensive than POB's, though really this is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

I think you are misunderstanding.


According to Chris, the reason Ainge wasn't able to wait for Smith was because he was "desperate".

The reason why Ainge was "desperate" was because he had POB as backup big man.

Therefore, the difference would be Skinner instead of POB. Ergo, the difference would be that by the trade deadline there was no desperation.

The big difference would be that now we'd be in the race for Smith/Gooden.

I don't see what's difficult to understand. In the worst case scenario, we'd have Skinner with a training camp and the entire season instead of Moore; but that's only the worst case scenario. In the best case scenario, we'd have Smith or Gooden to the playoffs.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The problem cordobes is that the addition of Moore doesn't take us off the race for Smith or Gooden anymore than having Skinner since the beginning of the season would have. The roster situation would've been the same as it pertains the possibility of signing Smith or Gooden. Our buying power would've been the same. Our willingness to go after them should be the same, as we would have a roster of big men of Powe, Davis, Skinner/Moore.

How is having Skinner over Moore get us in the race of Smith and Gooden?

[winsomme]

The problem cordobes is that the addition of Moore doesn't take us off the race for Smith or Gooden anymore than having Skinner since the beginning of the season would have. The roster situation would've been the same as it pertains the possibility of signing Smith or Gooden. Our buying power would've been the same. Our willingness to go after them should be the same, as we would have a roster of big men of Powe, Davis, Skinner/Moore.

How is having Skinner over Moore get us in the race of Smith and Gooden?

because in order to sign Moore we had to promise him a spot in the rotation...

[winsomme]

Bud, here's the quote from the Aldridge article:

However, the Celtics -- the team that Smith most wanted to play for this season -- have dropped out of the bidding after signing veteran big man Mikki Moore last week, according to the source. Moore had been released by Sacramento after the Kings had acquired several players -- including, ironically, Gooden, who came from the Bulls in a trade that sent guard John Salmons and center Brad Miller to Chicago for Gooden and forward Andres Nocioni.

"Boston's out of it," the source said.

signing Moore took us out of the bidding for Smith based on the commitment we made to Moore.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The problem cordobes is that the addition of Moore doesn't take us off the race for Smith or Gooden anymore than having Skinner since the beginning of the season would have. The roster situation would've been the same as it pertains the possibility of signing Smith or Gooden. Our buying power would've been the same. Our willingness to go after them should be the same, as we would have a roster of big men of Powe, Davis, Skinner/Moore.

How is having Skinner over Moore get us in the race of Smith and Gooden?

because in order to sign Moore we had to promise him a spot in the rotation...

Blah, completely irrelevant to this particular discussion and overall. As I explained in the other thread, one thing doesn't lead to the other. But let's not discuss this here. No need to have the same discussion in 2-4 separate threads.

Bud, here's the quote from the Aldridge article:

However, the Celtics -- the team that Smith most wanted to play for this season -- have dropped out of the bidding after signing veteran big man Mikki Moore last week, according to the source. Moore had been released by Sacramento after the Kings had acquired several players -- including, ironically, Gooden, who came from the Bulls in a trade that sent guard John Salmons and center Brad Miller to Chicago for Gooden and forward Andres Nocioni.

"Boston's out of it," the source said.

signing Moore took us out of the bidding for Smith based on the commitment we made to Moore.

Again, irrelevant to the particular discussion I'm having with cordobes. And Aldrige can suck it.