Hollinger picks Vince Carter over Pierce or Allen

[RockinRyA]

as far as i know carter's best playoff achievement was in 01 where they got to the eastern conference semifinals. it was repeated during 06 and 07. how did he "advanced exactly as far as paul did before paul had 2 HOFs"?

lets see..

00 playoffs: 1st rd, swept by knicks 0-3
01 playoffs: ecsf, lost to sixers, 3-4
02 playoffs: 1st rd, lost to pistons 2-3 (carter was injured)
03 playoffs: did not make playoffs
04 playoffs: did not make playoffs
05 playoffs(with nets): 1st rd, swept by heat 0-4
06 playoffs: ecsf, lost to heat 1-4
07 playoffs: ecsf, lost to cleveland 4-2
08 playoffs: did not make playoffs

and yeah, im not surprised with hollinger 

[Toine43]

Look, let's be perfectly honest here. How many of you guys thought that the Nets would be anywhere near the East playoff race before the season started? Probably a very small number.

We all love Paul Pierce. We all love to say Vince Carter is a loser etc. But Carter had advanced exactly as far as Paul did before Paul had two Hall-of-Famers added to his team.

If people aren't aware of how well Carter has played this year, they are simply letting their preconceived notions make up their opinions for them. The truth is - Vince Carter has played at an All-Star level and deserves to be there. Now, how many threads were there this season about Paul's lackadaisical D and his below average shooting nights?

Carter deserves to be there over Paul. Over Ray? Not so much, but definitely over Paul.

Actually, I'm glad there haven't been many threads on Paul's below average shooting nights, seeing as Paul's fg% this year is EXACTLY his career average, and his 3P% so far is 40%. He has only had a better season 3P% once, excluding his 48-game rookie campaign. I think that Paul has been okay on defense, but whether or not you think he's meeting his personal defensive standards, Pierce has held opponent SFs to a 14.7 PER. Carter's opponent SGs have a combined 17.5 PER.

Regarding VC, I admit that in thinking about Carter I did fall back on my preconeived notions of him, but that doesn't make me any different from 99% of the other fans who follow the NBA and care about who gets into the All-Star game. The All-Star game has always been about what you've done in past seasons. Like I said before, Pierce has been a victim of this before, so  it's about time that he got to cash in on past performances, and on his name alone.

Of course, that second paragraph would make more sense if I actually thought Carter deserved the roster spot over Pierce, which he doesn't. Pierce plays better defense, the players' offensive numbers are basically a wash. At best, it's a draw, which is why Hollinger's selection of Carter (especially without even explaining why he chose him over Pierce) is perplexing to me.

[ACF]

2000 Vinsanity > Any version of Paul Pierce

Despite your young age and obvious 29 team-bias I thought you knew something about basketball?

My bad I forgot to add that you were 5 in 2000.

I'm sure your grasp of the game then was superb though; no doubt.

I was 9 in 2000. Do I make these types of posts? It's not his age that makes him unqualified to comment on this, it's him.

I once encountered this dude on Facebook
who hated Paul's guts. Oh, well...
As far as YOUR posts go, Toine, they seem
a lot "older" than you. Funny sentence but
I guess you know what I mean 

JR loves everyone but the Celtics. Go figure!

PS: Who gave JR that last TP?! Your Tommy Point
distribution rights should be nullified...

[MBz]

Vince was the first swingman during the 2000s to be crowned as the next MJ. Where was Paul Pierce? O yeah he was under the wing of Antonie Walker, aha!

Pretty sure in 2000 that Kobe put up 29 a game, 6 boards and 5 assists.  I think he may have been crowed the next MJ.

[soap07]

Alright, well, if people want to use won-loss record as a way to justify All-Star selections...fine, use that too. How many people here thought that the Nets were going to be this good? Look at that team! They have a rookie center, Jarvis Hayes, Bobby Simmons and Yi all getting major rotation time. That team should be as bad as the Pacers.

Also, I love how everyone is using Jason Kidd, whose knees, terrible jump shot and terrible defense cost the Nets terribly the last two seasons, as a legitimate source of support for Carter and hold that against him.

Let's not forget. It was Kidd who quit on the team last year.

[Toine43]

Alright, well, if people want to use won-loss record as a way to justify All-Star selections...fine, use that too. How many people here thought that the Nets were going to be this good? Look at that team! They have a rookie center, Jarvis Hayes, Bobby Simmons and Yi all getting major rotation time. That team should be as bad as the Pacers.

Also, I love how everyone is using Jason Kidd, whose knees, terrible jump shot and terrible defense cost the Nets terribly the last two seasons, as a legitimate source of support for Carter and hold that against him.

Let's not forget. It was Kidd who quit on the team last year.

That's all nice, but it's not relevant to who between Carter or Pierce deserves the roster spot.

[soap07]

Alright, well, if people want to use won-loss record as a way to justify All-Star selections...fine, use that too. How many people here thought that the Nets were going to be this good? Look at that team! They have a rookie center, Jarvis Hayes, Bobby Simmons and Yi all getting major rotation time. That team should be as bad as the Pacers.

Also, I love how everyone is using Jason Kidd, whose knees, terrible jump shot and terrible defense cost the Nets terribly the last two seasons, as a legitimate source of support for Carter and hold that against him.

Let's not forget. It was Kidd who quit on the team last year.

That's all nice, but it's not relevant to who between Carter or Pierce deserves the roster spot.

Why? I personally believe Carter does. It's close - but people on this thread are making it seem that it is absolutely absurd that Carter should get into the game over Pierce. It's not.

[Bankshot]

Alright, well, if people want to use won-loss record as a way to justify All-Star selections...fine, use that too. How many people here thought that the Nets were going to be this good? Look at that team! They have a rookie center, Jarvis Hayes, Bobby Simmons and Yi all getting major rotation time. That team should be as bad as the Pacers.

Also, I love how everyone is using Jason Kidd, whose knees, terrible jump shot and terrible defense cost the Nets terribly the last two seasons, as a legitimate source of support for Carter and hold that against him.

Let's not forget. It was Kidd who quit on the team last year.

That's all nice, but it's not relevant to who between Carter or Pierce deserves the roster spot.

Why? I personally believe Carter does. It's close - but people on this thread are making it seem that it is absolutely absurd that Carter should get into the game over Pierce. It's not.

I think it's absurd.  Always was.

[crownsy]

Alright, well, if people want to use won-loss record as a way to justify All-Star selections...fine, use that too. How many people here thought that the Nets were going to be this good? Look at that team! They have a rookie center, Jarvis Hayes, Bobby Simmons and Yi all getting major rotation time. That team should be as bad as the Pacers.

Also, I love how everyone is using Jason Kidd, whose knees, terrible jump shot and terrible defense cost the Nets terribly the last two seasons, as a legitimate source of support for Carter and hold that against him.

Let's not forget. It was Kidd who quit on the team last year.

That's all nice, but it's not relevant to who between Carter or Pierce deserves the roster spot.

Why? I personally believe Carter does. It's close - but people on this thread are making it seem that it is absolutely absurd that Carter should get into the game over Pierce. It's not.

I think it's absurd.  Always was.

seconded and TP'ed.

[soap07]

seconded and TP'ed

Again, why is it "absurd"? Carter is putting up All-Star level numbers while having his team far exceeding expectations set before the season started. What's absurd is the lack of objectivity in discussing a player like Vince. Vince doesn't have three other All-Star caliber players to play with. Yes, Vince has had Kidd to play with the best couple years - but most people that watched the Nets would agree that Kidd was terrible last year.

[CelticsWhat35]

I think part of the reason people won't give Carter the benefit of the doubt, is the fact that he's gotten it throughout his career.  He's started plenty of all-star games when he either didn't deserve to start, or didn't even deserve to be on the team.

He is putting up some all-star type numbers, but no one can say in any degree of seriousness that he is playing better than Paul Pierce.  The Nets are doing a lot better than anyone expected this year, but Carter is putting up the same numbers as last year, when they were horrible.  The biggest differences are the huge emergence of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez.

On a side note, it was pretty pathetic that Ray Allen didn't even get a mention in Hollinger's article.  Ray made the team last year, and he's having a better season so far this year.  He may not make it this year because of the emergence of Granger, Harris, etc., but he needs to be in the discussion.  We've won a lot of games this year off his hot shooting.

[crownsy]

I think part of the reason people won't give Carter the benefit of the doubt, is the fact that he's gotten it throughout his career.  He's started plenty of all-star games when he either didn't deserve to start, or didn't even deserve to be on the team.

He is putting up some all-star type numbers, but no one can say in any degree of seriousness that he is playing better than Paul Pierce.  The Nets are doing a lot better than anyone expected this year, but Carter is putting up the same numbers as last year, when they were horrible.  The biggest differences are the huge emergence of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez.

On a side note, it was pretty pathetic that Ray Allen didn't even get a mention in Hollinger's article.  Ray made the team last year, and he's having a better season so far this year.  He may not make it this year because of the emergence of Granger, Harris, etc., but he needs to be in the discussion.  We've won a lot of games this year off his hot shooting.

I was going to make much the same reply, but celtic saved me the trouble.

Also, my biggest problem with it would be that vince is god awful at defense, mostly due to a severe aversion to effort, and hollinger discounts one entire half of the floor because its hard to quantify in his precious PER stat.

Granger, Pierce, Lebron and KG are all markedly better than Vince "I try when i feel like it" carter. another I would have a hard time putting Vince over: Josh Smith ( ATL plays really, really good basketball with him in.)

[soap07]

I think part of the reason people won't give Carter the benefit of the doubt, is the fact that he's gotten it throughout his career.  He's started plenty of all-star games when he either didn't deserve to start, or didn't even deserve to be on the team.

He is putting up some all-star type numbers, but no one can say in any degree of seriousness that he is playing better than Paul Pierce.  The Nets are doing a lot better than anyone expected this year, but Carter is putting up the same numbers as last year, when they were horrible.  The biggest differences are the huge emergence of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez.

On a side note, it was pretty pathetic that Ray Allen didn't even get a mention in Hollinger's article.  Ray made the team last year, and he's having a better season so far this year.  He may not make it this year because of the emergence of Granger, Harris, etc., but he needs to be in the discussion.  We've won a lot of games this year off his hot shooting.

I was going to make much the same reply, but celtic saved me the trouble.

Also, my biggest problem with it would be that vince is god awful at defense, mostly due to a severe aversion to effort, and hollinger discounts one entire half of the floor because its hard to quantify in his precious PER stat.

Granger, Pierce, Lebron and KG are all markedly better than Vince "I try when i feel like it" carter. another I would have a hard time putting Vince over: Josh Smith ( ATL plays really, really good basketball with him in.)

Let's go over the various ways this post comes off slightly ignorant. First, Hollinger does not solely rely on PER. If he did, he would have named Bosh starter rather than KG.


Power forward: Kevin Garnett, Celtics
Most of the choices on this list were relatively easy; this is the one exception. Splitting hairs among Garnett and Chris Bosh is tough, especially when both are birds of a feather as long, lean power forwards who like to play away from the basket.

Bosh's numbers are superior in most respects. He has a better PER (23.27 to 21.34); he has played substantially more minutes (38.6 to 32.6); and his team's inferior win-loss record is easily explained away by comparing the people that surround them.

But Garnett is the ultimate choice for the simple reason that his intensity at the defensive end still percolates through the rest of the roster, allowing the Celtics to be among the league's elite teams at that end even while taking opponents' best shot every night. In the end, their numbers are close enough that the D puts KG over the top.

Hollinger actually watches the games too, believe it or not. This was a perfect example of him accounting for defense and not just PER.

This notion that Vince "only tries when he wants to" is mind bogglingly overblown and has really only happened once in his career - in Toronto. Last year's struggles had nothing to do with effort - but injuries. Now, one can call Vince injury-prone, but that is a different discussion. Once Kidd got traded, Vince upped his game to another level but did not have the talent around him to succeed. People do not realize just how toxic Jason Kidd was last season to the Nets. Talk about how reputations precede.

People are quick to point out that Vince played with Jason Kidd. Vince's first two years with NJ could be argued as 2 of the best of his career in terms of all-around game - career highs in rebounds and assists. Vince has played hard most of his time in NJ, people just choose not to realize it because of one bad stretch in Toronto.

Also, even if you think that Vince only tries when he feels like it, the bottom line is - Vince has "tried" all season. This is not an All-Star game of past accomplishments - it's only for this year. Vince should go in.

Vince has put up similar offensive numbers to Pierce while not having nearly the offensive weapons to take the pressure off him. Vince's defense is really not as bad as some make it seem.

[BballTim]

seconded and TP'ed

Again, why is it "absurd"? Carter is putting up All-Star level numbers while having his team far exceeding expectations set before the season started. What's absurd is the lack of objectivity in discussing a player like Vince. Vince doesn't have three other All-Star caliber players to play with. Yes, Vince has had Kidd to play with the best couple years - but most people that watched the Nets would agree that Kidd was terrible last year.

  I don't think the Nets are "far exceeding expectations". I think that they're playing pretty poorly. Vince and Harris are both producing less as the season progresses. They have almost the same record that they were on at this time last year.

[greg_kite]

I think part of the reason people won't give Carter the benefit of the doubt, is the fact that he's gotten it throughout his career.  He's started plenty of all-star games when he either didn't deserve to start, or didn't even deserve to be on the team.

He is putting up some all-star type numbers, but no one can say in any degree of seriousness that he is playing better than Paul Pierce.  The Nets are doing a lot better than anyone expected this year, but Carter is putting up the same numbers as last year, when they were horrible.  The biggest differences are the huge emergence of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez.

On a side note, it was pretty pathetic that Ray Allen didn't even get a mention in Hollinger's article.  Ray made the team last year, and he's having a better season so far this year.  He may not make it this year because of the emergence of Granger, Harris, etc., but he needs to be in the discussion.  We've won a lot of games this year off his hot shooting.

I have to agree with the last part too.  If Hollinger watched the 19 game streak it was Ray who was leading the team in scoring.  During this win streak he has been on fire.  I don't have much of a problem with Carter going to Phoenix, but I'd pick him OR Devin Harris, not both.  And as much as I love Rondo, Ray and Pierce deserve to go before he does.  Rondo is brilliant at times but disappears too much to be an All Star.  And the C's can't have four guys there if Orlando and Cleveland only have one or two.

I also think Rashard Lewis is more critical to the Magic's success than Nelson.  It's a shame too that Cleveland only has one All Star.

And it's not that people just want players on winning teams in the game.  Bosh and Granger deserve to be there more than Pierce and Allen.