Is Kobe Bryant a "Winner"

[Fan from VT]

I think the term "winner" is one of the most vague, meaningless and useless labels in sports. This, of course, makes it one of the most commonly used adjectives in sports arguments, as it requires no support and is impossible to argue against because it has no meaning or definition.

[ACF]

I've thought about this all day.
All I could come up with is this:

NOT IN THE '08-'09 SEASON.




Two words for you all:

"New Orleans"
and
"Back-to-back!"

[acieEarl]

Not sure about a "winner"
 
but definitely a rapist.

[cordobes]

I've said for 3 years that Kobe Bryant is the best player on the NBA. I stand by that, even with the emergence of LeBron James.

He is a winner, but he needs help. Everyone needs someone, Jordan needed Rodman and Pippen. Bird needed McHale and Parish. Pierce, KG and Ray needed each other.

While poking fun at Kobe for failing to win without Shaq is great fun, we have to realise that this doesn't make him any less of a player.

But how much help exactly? To play along 4 all-stars? An in-his-prime Shaq? Come on, he had a terrific supporting cast last season.

What does Kobe do better than LeBron? He has better range on his jump-shot, he makes FTs at a higher rate and is way better making difficult shots (a quite overrated skill).  LeBron trumps him on everything else.

I have no idea if he's a winner or not. He surely has the desire to win, but I doubt he knows how to channel it the right way. That frequently happens to morally challenged persons, like Kobe.

[Reyquila]

The utimate goal in the NBA is to get THAT championship ring = proof that you went all the way. The ultimate goal in the Olimpics is to win a medal. How many NBA rings does Kobe have? How many Olimpic rings Kobe has? What do you want to make out of that? Go ahead.

[Sweet17]

He is a winner because he has won. The other ways of defining "winner" come down to a popularity contest. This is the attack that anti-pierce posters used on Pierce before he won a championship.

That being said I think Kobe as a player is overrated. His talent is overstated and his hardwork is underrated. He takes good care of his body and plays extremely hard in the regular season.

But in this league he just IS NOT the transcendent talent he is made out to be. Back in the day it was Jordan>>>>>>>>>>Glen Rice (or whatever two guard you want to insert) and everyone else.

Nowadays there are LOTS of guys who can hang with Kobe. Guys like Dwayne Wade (yes I said it he is back), Iggy, Pierce, Lebron, and more.  Kobe might be better then those guys for the most part. But the gap isn't anything special. Depending on the matchup he doesn't have any advantage at all! It's not really Kobe's fault. It's the rest of the league has caught up with Jordan. Jordan was the best package of athleticism/basketball knowledge/competitive play we have ever seen. Kobe is remarkably close - but so are a ton of other guys.

In fact guys like Pierce can rise up and outplay Kobe in a critical series. That was unthinkable in the day. Talk what you want about supporting casts but there was zero chance of any 2 guard/forward just coming in and owning Jordan for a series.

That's the real reason people like to bash Kobe and call him not a winner. It's simply that his competition is up. Think back and think about the other top "two guards" in Jordan's day.. The list is remarkably small of dynamic players like Kobe. Jordan has really changed the game. It's the media and some in my view misguided fans like to harp on him as the best player in basketball. Even if that's true it's not terribly significant anymore. The Celtics proved this first hand. He just can't exert his will like Jordan could. Jordan would have shut down the Pierce equivalent while scoring an outrageous amount of points...

With Kobe greatness was thrust upon him. He never took the mantle of greatness for himself. In fairness to him he should never have been expected to be the next Jordan. Expecting a guy to come in and be a basketball god and having him seem quite human is where this "not a winner" stuff comes from. The truth he is a winner but is undeserving of basketball god status. Yes the 81 point game was amazing. But Tony Delk had a 50 point game... It was something of a fluke. 

[JBcat]

Kobe is a winner.

Can he win a title as the best player on a team? No, I don't think so, he's too much of a cancer.

A team with Kobe as the leader will never have the togetherness to get it done, in my opinion.

Interesting.  Can a cancer be a winner?  Does "winner" mean something more than just "somebody who has won"?  Is Jed Buechler more of a winner than, say, John Stockton?  It's an interesting question; I prefer to gauge players more in terms of leadership, etc., rather than strictly on win-loss record.

I think the term "winner" is one of the most vague, meaningless and useless labels in sports. This, of course, makes it one of the most commonly used adjectives in sports arguments, as it requires no support and is impossible to argue against because it has no meaning or definition.

You guys beat me to the punch.   When I saw the subject line "Is Kobe Bryant a winner"  I thought well it depends how you define a winner.  Are you a winner in the sense if you only win a championship which would exclude some old time greats like Charles Barkley or even new ones like Lebron James or a winner in the sense your a good team player and well respected throughout the league???  I tend to lean towards the latter meaning because there are too many great players that never win a title many of which is because of circumstances for instance playing during the Jordan era or not having the chance to play with other greats like our own big 3.       I look at certain role players that have never won a title as winners for example Shane Battier while a loser I would look at someone like Marbury.  I'm not crazy about Kobe the person and he maybe isn't the greatest team player but I wouldn't call him a bad one and he is most certainly well respected by his peers.  I would call him a winner.   

[blazingarrow]

There's a difference between guys who win, and guys you can call "a winner".

And winners don't demoralize their own teams when things aren't going well.

Jordan was a winner. Bird was a winner. Hell, Derek Jeter at least WAS a winner.

Manny Ramirez (love the guy to death) is not. Neither is Kobe.

[BigAlTheFuture]

Of course the guys a winner. No one can win a championship on their own. Michael Jordan couldn't even win a championship alone. He needed Pippen and Pippen needed him.

As much as I hate the guy. Kobe Bryant is a winner. 3 championships is no joke.

[freshinthehouse]

There's a difference between guys who win, and guys you can call "a winner".

And winners don't demoralize their own teams when things aren't going well.

Jordan was a winner. Bird was a winner. Hell, Derek Jeter at least WAS a winner.

Manny Ramirez (love the guy to death) is not. Neither is Kobe.

I think Jordan did plenty of this when he was with the Wizards.

[CoachBo]

There's a difference between guys who win, and guys you can call "a winner".

And winners don't demoralize their own teams when things aren't going well.

Jordan was a winner. Bird was a winner. Hell, Derek Jeter at least WAS a winner.

Manny Ramirez (love the guy to death) is not. Neither is Kobe.

Presicely. Winners are quality people on and off the court, whose quality produces results. They make their teammates better. Bryant meets very little of that criteria.

People who defend Kobe don't want to go into the off-the-court stuff.

bryant is an opera singer: "Me, me, me." He's the poster child for the spoiled athlete generation, and as far as I'm concerned, he's NEVER welcome to wear the green.

It was a lot of fun exposing him for what he is in June.

[freshinthehouse]

People who defend Kobe don't want to go into the off-the-court stuff.

Besides a dismissed rape charge, what else is there?  As far as i know the dude hasnt gotten in much trouble.  I've always heard that one of the reasons he doesn't mesh with some of his teammates is because he is something of a homebody.

[Sweet17]

There's a difference between guys who win, and guys you can call "a winner".

And winners don't demoralize their own teams when things aren't going well.

Jordan was a winner. Bird was a winner. Hell, Derek Jeter at least WAS a winner.

Manny Ramirez (love the guy to death) is not. Neither is Kobe.

Your redefining "winner" as guy the media considers to be a 'good guy.' I don't agree. Manny is a winner because he can hit good pitching. That means in a clutch situation Manny can come through for you. He has a talent reserve to draw on. I'd say the same thing about Pierce - though it's not a popular view because of his workmanlike style.. PP would coast for some of the game (not just on D but moreso on O) but then has the ability to turn it on if he feels sufficently motivated. p--- off Pierce and all the sudden he is throwing down in traffic dunks instead of outside J's.. 

By your defintion a guy like Wally Sczerbiak is a 'winner."

Pete

[CoachBo]

People who defend Kobe don't want to go into the off-the-court stuff.

Besides a dismissed rape charge, what else is there?  As far as i know the dude hasnt gotten in much trouble.  I've always heard that one of the reasons he doesn't mesh with some of his teammates is because he is something of a homebody.

He doesn't mesh with his teammates because he verbally abuses them - on and off the floor.

Pretty simple. He isn't the kind of person I want on the Boston Celtics. In any way, shape or form. On the court or off the court.

[Sweet17]

He doesn't mesh with his teammates because he verbally abuses them - on and off the floor.

Pretty simple. He isn't the kind of person I want on the Boston Celtics. In any way, shape or form. On the court or off the court.

Almost all NBA alpha dogs do this. Have you seen the video of Gilbert razzing his teamate in that three point contest? MJ was famous for doing this in his playing days. PP was known for his continued dogging of Kedrick Brown.

If you can't take some "ribbing" or what cry babies would call 'verbal abuse" then your not going to make it in the NBA anyway.. The only issue with Kobe is that he is "supposedly" more of a lone wolf - whereas guys like PP seem to be one of the "boys".. Even so popularity issues don't place guys out of the "winner" catergory.

Again because via the media filter we think some guy is a 'jerk' that DOES NOT MAKE HIM NOT A WINNER. Stop hoisting moral issues into the gaming arena. The truth is nice guys do not always win. This is not hollywood.

Pete