Charlie Rosen: "If the Celtics can't repeat, it's their own fault"

[postmoderncynic]

i've logged on just to say i mystified by the negativity here

1) DA has an exceptioanl record at identifying youth who can contribute as rotation caliber players ...

[Redz]

"If the Celtics can't repeat, it's their own fault"

Just curious...Who else's fault would it be?

Same can be said for the Clippers.

"If the Clippers can't win a title, it's their own fault"

"If the Clippers can't have a .500 record, it's their own fault"

"If the Clippers can't tie their shoes, it's their own fault"

[postmoderncynic]

by my count:
(ignore the banks/perkins/bhunter draft ... he didnt have prep time)
(ignore the highschoolers AlJeff & GGreen)

6 out of 9 picks (Rondo, West, TAllen, Davis, Powe & Gomes vs. Pruitt/Reed/Greene) were rotation players in their rookie years ... the chances that we'll get at least one rotation player out of pruitt/giddens/walker/POB seem very high

most likely giddens who can play some SF
miles likely wont make the team (think Brandon Wallace)
and as sure as rain, DA will pick up a playoff top 8/9 rotation player before the trade deadline    

relax, we're in much better shape than we were last year when nobody believed we had starting caliber PG or C never mind backups

[wdleehi]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.





The Celtics are still the best team in the East.  But they did not help themselves out this offseason.  They created a bench with to many question marks, and no past history of being OK.

[nickagneta]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.





The Celtics are still the best team in the East.  But they did not help themselves out this offseason.  They created a bench with to many question marks, and no past history of being OK.

Ahhhh. But think of the potential wd, think of the potential.

Of course, 40 cents and potential can't even buy you an issue of the Boston Globe.

[incoherent]

The only difference in liking this offseason and not liking it so far comes down to whether or not you liked the Posey 4 year deal because that is the only thing that has happened.



When you win a championship you normally don't blow your team up the next year with lots of trades and moves...

[nickagneta]

First off I want to discuss this misconception so many have about a young player coming back and being even better than they were the year before. Apparently none of you have ever heard the expression "the sophomore jinx". That's when a player in their second year who had success as a rookie takes a step back and plays worse the next year.

Oh, you have heard of it. I thought you might have.

There's a reason for the expression and it's because it is a very common phenomenon. It happens all the time. And not to just 2nd year players. Sometimes players that have a good couple of years then have a bad one or even a couple of bad years before rebounding back strong.

Remember Al Jefferson's second year. Not quite a thing of beauty. Remember the roller coaster that was Chauncey Billups his first few years. Look how promising Marcus Williams was thought of after his first year in Jersey. He came back with an awful year last year.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here but let's not jump to what ifs about some older players but all but guarantee that our younger players will come back better simply because they are a year older. It doesn't work that way with young guys all the time. 5+ year veterans are always more consistent.

Also, Sam Cassell sucked in his time as a Celtic. But he was brought in to win playoff games and he was instrumental in the outcome of five victories early on in Atlanta and Cleveland.

His first two games versus Atlanta he was one of the only players off the bench that could put the ball in the hoop and was needed desperately in both games when Rondo went sour fast.

Game 1 Cleveland he scored 13 huge points to help win that game. Without Sam coming in in the first quarter of Game 2 of that series and hitting some shots and steadying the troops and running the offense, the Celtics get blown away early. He helped turn a rout into a lopsided affair in the other direction when that game was looking to be getting out of hand early.

Sam was pretty awful to down right pathetic after that but he helped this team win games they had to win in two seven game series.

Don't let your memory fail you simply because you want to make a point. Sam sucked but he did win and was absolutely necessary for us to win 4-5 games early on in the playoffs. Without him there was no Detroit and LA.

  Your memory is pretty selective as well. Didn't Sam play in most of our losses to Atl and Clev? I seem to recall his playing pretty poorly in those games. Maybe if he skips the playoffs altogether we still win, we just win other games.

  And Al Jefferson's second season was marred by injury. Being a 5 year vet doesn't make you immune to that.

I never heard any fans yelling Sam,Sam,Sam but i heard from the crowd at times Eddie,Eddie.Almost beg

ing Doc to put Eddie in to "right the ship"when Sam was doing more screwing up than contributing in a good way

please,give me a break.I find when some try to tagteam one poster they will go to no lengths to do so.Face it

dudes Sam had more sucky playing time than positive in the time he was with the team.Im sure we could have

won the championship without his contribution.We probably lost a few games because of his shot happy butt.

I think in this statement you are being grossly unfair.

Sam Cassell without a doubt helped to win some early games for this team in the playoffs. It might be able to be said he was one of the two most significant contributors in two games versus Cleveland.

But to place blame for the losses solely on Sam's perfermances thereafter is just not fair. In those losses on the road in Cleveland and Atlanta, just about every loss was the result of an overall lack of poor play from everyone on the roster. In many of those games it was the starters that put the team in a hole that it just couldn't drag itself out of.

Those losses I blame on the team as a whole including Doc for poor between game preparation. They were not ready to come out and play during most of those 6 losses.

The games they lost to LA and Detroit there was really no culprit involved. Detroit and LA just outplayed the Celtics those games.

Listen, I am no fan of Cassell and am glad he is gone. I think he was god awful for most of his time here. But to make a statement that I am being selective in my memories of what he brought to the table or what he contributed or was responsible for isn't fair.

Cassell did help this team to win a few games. The team as a unit pretty much was bad during the road losses in Atlanta and Cleveland and blaming any of those losses on Cassell would be a misrepresentation of the facts.

And for all the rah rah over House and his accomplishments during the LA series, he was not playing well or shooting well for almost two months. There was a reason Doc felt the need to go with Sam and part of it was House's contributions to this team over the last couple of months of the season. His shooting went from 41% from 3's to 36% over the final two months. His April was awful when he had a truly disgusting 1-1.3 Assist to Turnover ratio. He wasn't playing well and I just don't feel confident in saying that Eddie would have performed as well or better than Sam in those early playoff games because he probably couldn't do it at that time.

That doesn't reflect poorly on Eddie, people have slumps. But give Cassell a little respect for the few games he did help us.

[postmoderncynic]

i think its a little rough to hold the first draft against DA - he had just walked into the door, no?

the fact is over the last 4 drafts that DA (when not taking a flyer on HS kids)
                     coll yrs / draft position 
2006   Rondo   2   22   
2004   West    2   24   
2004   Allen    4   25   
2007   Pruitt   2   32      
2007   Davis   3   35   
2004   Reed    4   43      
2006   Powe   2   48   
2005   Gomes   4   50   
2005   Greene    4   53      


Gomes played 1300 minutes as a rookie; Glen Davis almost a 1000; and Leon about 800 both his first two years (despite not knowing a defensive rotation if it bit him in the ass)

DA has repeatedly picked up young guys who could play real minutes especially mid-rounders with 3/4 years college experience. with the starters exceptionally solid at 32 minutes per, there is enough quantity on the bench for the regular season

the real question is how he adds another quality top 8 rotation guy for playoffs ... DA certainly isnt hibernating until the draft next year. the quality just wasnt there this off-season so he waits

 

[wdleehi]

The only difference in liking this offseason and not liking it so far comes down to whether or not you liked the Posey 4 year deal because that is the only thing that has happened.



When you win a championship you normally don't blow your team up the next year with lots of trades and moves...

The difference is if they passed on Posey's 4 year contract (which I thought they should) they should of used that money to bring in vets that can help them win now.  Not two rookies, two projects, and a SG they had last year that was so inconsistent.  



I like that House is back.  


House, Powe, and Scali are the only bench players you know what you are going to get.  Davis is close to joining them.  

[Bozo]

I think it has to be recognized that the Celts, in some respects, barely won the Title.  Atlanta, Cleveland both took us to 7 games, and Detroit and  LA both took us to 6.   Winning another Title with/or without Posey is hardly a done deal 

Given his age, I think there is a fair chance that Posey's game starts falling off.  He is not an allstar, who's game can fall off and still be better than most players.

Secondly, I don't think its a big stretch to see two step up from (TA, Powe, Baby, POB, Giddens) sufficiently to replace the impact that Posey had.  And their games won't fall off, but will get better the year after that.   

I think Ainge believes you can replace a role player, with another role player.  The key to a Title is the 3 allstars, and perhaps Rhondo.  As those four are getting more and more familiar with each other, our chances of a second Title are better.  And Doc weaves in and out, whomever steps up from the remaining roster of role players. 

Signing an aging role player to 4 years, going past the contract marks of  Allen and Pierce is likely a mistake.  Seeing others step up to replace his impact will likely happen.  Given our greater flexibility, and the ability to replace the loss, our chances of winning another Title once in the next two years, are improved. 

Either way, its a gamble.  But I would venture to say that Ainge likely 
has the odds down pat. 

Frankly, our biggest role player weakness was not filled by Posey.   If POB develops, this team improves significantly. 

[BballTim]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.

  None of the kids will be expected to replace Posey's 25 or so minutes a game. We'd be looking for 10 or so. Very few of the rookies Ainge drafted (probably projects like Perk or Green) didn't at least approach that.

  Posey was probably better than anyone on the bench, but he was more of  a "hold the fort" guy than any kind of game changer. 

[nickagneta]

The only difference in liking this offseason and not liking it so far comes down to whether or not you liked the Posey 4 year deal because that is the only thing that has happened.



When you win a championship you normally don't blow your team up the next year with lots of trades and moves...

Sorry but this just is not true.

I happen to like the fact that they didn't sign Posey to what he wanted. And I also happen to think the best thing for this team would have been to let Allen and possibly House walk and use the money to entice a quality big like Kurt Thomas, a player in the mold of Roger Mason or Janero Pargo, and then a defensive SF in the mold of Matt Barnes or Mickael Pietrus.

I don't think adding three veterans of that caliber would be anymore upsetting to the overall chemistry of this team as adding POB, Miles, House and Allen would have. I think it would have given this team a much better blend of veterans and youth and also would have easily narrowed down Doc's options for a rotation and helped to develop the rookies and Pruitt at a better pace than baptism by fire that will occur this year when Doc is moving players in out and around the rotations trying to figure out who is going tobe the most effective 8-12 men on the bench.

And I know I'm no the only one that feels this way. Dissatisfaction with this season goes a lot further than just James Posey and, at least in my case, really has very little to nothing to do with Posey.

[BballTim]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.





The Celtics are still the best team in the East.  But they did not help themselves out this offseason.  They created a bench with to many question marks, and no past history of being OK.

Ahhhh. But think of the potential wd, think of the potential.

Of course, 40 cents and potential can't even buy you an issue of the Boston Globe.

  It's a little early in the season to buy the argument that we'll get little if any contribution from any of the young players.

[wdleehi]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.

  None of the kids will be expected to replace Posey's 25 or so minutes a game. We'd be looking for 10 or so. Very few of the rookies Ainge drafted (probably projects like Perk or Green) didn't at least approach that.

  Posey was probably better than anyone on the bench, but he was more of  a "hold the fort" guy than any kind of game changer. 

Posey was better then just "hold the fort"


but, can you say that the bench is now good enough to 'hold the fort'?  Do they have a track record that says they can?

Because with the talent of the starters, that all the bench is needed to do.  They don't need to be game changers.  

[wdleehi]

You ignored 5 of the 14 picks? 



Can't do that.

Davis, Powe and Gomes didn't play a lot of their rookie season.  (Powe had long stretches where he didn't play in his 2nd season)




Last year, Rondo and Perkins were starting caliber players.  They just had to prove it.  Both had had some past success.


Posey was better last year then anyone on this years bench.





The Celtics are still the best team in the East.  But they did not help themselves out this offseason.  They created a bench with to many question marks, and no past history of being OK.

Ahhhh. But think of the potential wd, think of the potential.

Of course, 40 cents and potential can't even buy you an issue of the Boston Globe.

  It's a little early in the season to buy the argument that we'll get little if any contribution from any of the young players.

That's not the argument.

The argument is did the Celtics put themselves in a good position not having enough guys on the bench you know will contribute right away?