Author Topic: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.  (Read 9212 times)

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The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« on: September 02, 2008, 09:35:37 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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For being the shortest off season the Celtics have had since 1986, it sure does seem like it is taking forever for Game 1 and the flag raising to get here. And the vast amount of tremendously interesting topics to discuss here at Celticsblog has just made the time fly by. ::)

Okay, maybe not. But as a community I have to say we sure are creative in drumming up subjects to while away the time.

But one subject that I have just not seen a lot of, if anything on, is one that in past off seasons, especially last, was a daily given and good for days of discourse on end.

Doc Rivers.

So....what about Doc you say? Well, what about him. He won that elusive first round playoff series, barely. He took a team to the promised land, one with three future Hall of Famers. He won 66 games but played in the astonishingly weak Eastern Conference. And while doing all that he still managed to drive most everybody here that is a Celtic diehard, completely out of their minds.

Now, I think most except the most ardent Doc detractors will admit he has earned the right to coach this team. I think most except the most ardent Doc detractors will admit that Doc did an overall very good job last year. I think most except the most ardent Doc detractors will admit Doc is probably a better coach than what they thought he was during last season at this time.

Or do you?

If you know me, you know I support Doc and will defend him incessantly. That's many because I do think he ever got a fair shake here because the general manager never gave him a team that could vie for anything more than a worst position in the draft lottery. I thought most of the criticism was misplaced and downright mean spirited and wrong. He was our coach and until he got some talent to work with, I said give the man a break and let's see what he could do.

He did well.

But, he drove me nuts. His overuse of Posey at the PF position and small ball was maddening. His horrible rotations that quite often used a "Green" team of subs when the game was still on the line had me throwing things at the television screen. His reliance on anyone but Perk in the fourth when the C's needed his size and defense almost had me committed. The misuse of Ray Allen as solely a three point assassin was almost unforgivable. And there was a lot of other things.

So does Doc deserve unlimited support or if he hasn't learned anything and continues to make the same mistakes does the free pass that most coaches and front offices get after a championship disappear faster than a pencil in a Batman movie?

Again I think most know where I stand. I support the man and really don't care for some of the name calling that went his way in the past. But I have to say, Doc might just get the shortest leash any championship coach has ever gotten. I don't think the fan base will take this team dropping back with a championship hangover and if they don't perform, Doc will feel the brunt of the heat.

The Celtics players have a love fest going on with this town right now and I don't see the blame for any lack of performance on their part to fall their way. It's going to be Doc's fault. No matter what.

So a little advice Doc. After the opening night ceremonies, forget last year. It didn't take place. Because if for any reason you or your team gets complacent, watch out. These Celtic fans aren't going to be like the Pats fans in 2002 or the Red Sox fans of 2005. Championships are our birthright and this crew had better deliver more.

Or else. Because the fan base might not be the only people ready to turn on you. Danny Ainge and Wyc Grousbek might not be very patient either.

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 11:19:43 AM »

Offline shookones99

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Great Post.

I think Doc has earned the respect of most celtic fans but not necessarily the trust.  His moves will continue to be questioned until he wins another championship.  I know that is tough but i think that's what it's going to take to earn the full confidence of Boston sports fans who have two other great coaches (Belichick and Francona) to compare him to.

I remember before Francona won his first world series he was constantly being questioned.  People thought he was nothing more than a players coach brought in to handle big personalities.  Even after he won the first one people would say how he just got lucky and hopped on an extremely talented team (which is often said about Doc).  But now he gets the benefit of the doubt.  As does Belichik.  He can basically do anything and we as fans will trust that he made the right decision and that he must know something that we don't.  Doc doesn't get that trust because he hasn't earned it.  One more championship and he will be there.


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Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 11:24:52 AM »

Offline zerophase

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how's his contract extension going?

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Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 11:38:12 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.  Lastly, I'm a bit concerned that a team full of so many inconsistent and/or inexperienced youngsters don't fit well with Doc's "mass line changes" / "four man bench units" philosophy. 

I'm not criticizing Doc:  he is who he is at this point, and he has clearly shown a certain coaching style up until this point.  I think Danny would have been better off giving Doc players that fit that philosophy, rather than asking him to basically rebuild on the fly.  Even the "vets" who are left -- House, BBD/Powe -- aren't necessarily guys that Doc trusted, as based upon how he used them in the playoffs.  I wonder, then, if it will be fair to criticize Doc when (in my mind) he hasn't been placed in the best position to succeed.

My more extensive thoughts on the subject can be found here.

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Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 11:40:24 AM »

Offline bbc3341

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Doc is a good coach and a tireless worker. He will be prepared this season and the C's will win 60 games, the East, and be back in the finals!

OK, now for my real thoughts: I am worried, not really about Doc, but the players. We just don't know how they'll respond now that they've won. Will they continue to accept lower stats for the team? Will they buy into Doc's system once more? Will they be as coachable? My guess is that they will and that my hopes (see above) are well founded, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit to being at least somewhat concerned. Let's put it this way, I don't have the same feelings about this C's team as I did the teams in the 80s or even the Patriots of today. It's still way too soon, I mean even thought they won #17, it's still just been one season that we've seen them play!

OK, OK, OK - I'm excited and looking forward to the season, my fears will fade on opening night when they hoist the banner and start playing again. I need to go back and watch game 4 from the finals - oh but wait, who was that guy hitting the killer 3s and making plays on D? I think his number was 41? Do we still have that guy??? (Oh, no, here I go again - start the season already!)
Now, on to 18...

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 11:56:23 AM »

Offline DannyZ

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I think Doc improved dramatically as a coach the past 4 years.  Suffering through the 06-07 season probably made him better overall.  He's still a relatively young coach at age 46.  He younger than most of the recent championship coaches when they won their first title:

Greg Popovich - 50 (1999).

Pat Riley - 47 (1982)

Rudy Tomjanovich - 46 (1994)

Phil Jackson - 45 (1991)

Larry Brown - 64 (2004)

Doc's best coaching days may still be ahead of him.

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 12:00:37 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Quote
I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.  Lastly, I'm a bit concerned that a team full of so many inconsistent and/or inexperienced youngsters don't fit well with Doc's "mass line changes" / "four man bench units" philosophy.

Meh. I think your going overboard. In the NBA really its only the top 8 or 9 that matter. And the only player that's gone out of that is Posey. So your disappointed Posey's not back. Time will tell how big an impact that is. I say it's pretty small. PJ might come back for the playoffs..

Pete 

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 12:06:33 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.

  I think Doc handled this pretty well in the playoffs last year. He had plenty of options (House or Cassell, Powe or Davis or PJ, Posey or TA) but he kept his rotations pretty small and played whoever he thought would succeed in a given situation. He didn't go with the same rotation throughout the playoffs yet he didn't switch who he went with game by game or half by half. 

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 12:15:07 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.  Lastly, I'm a bit concerned that a team full of so many inconsistent and/or inexperienced youngsters don't fit well with Doc's "mass line changes" / "four man bench units" philosophy. 

I'm not criticizing Doc:  he is who he is at this point, and he has clearly shown a certain coaching style up until this point.  I think Danny would have been better off giving Doc players that fit that philosophy, rather than asking him to basically rebuild on the fly.  Even the "vets" who are left -- House, BBD/Powe -- aren't necessarily guys that Doc trusted, as based upon how he used them in the playoffs.  I wonder, then, if it will be fair to criticize Doc when (in my mind) he hasn't been placed in the best position to succeed.

My more extensive thoughts on the subject can be found here.
Well said Roy.

I know last year you were pretty worried that Doc didn't put his team in the best position to succeed all the time. I'm not sure I agreed with that but I think you have a good handle on it this year.

Danny's off season moves have left Doc with two undersized power forwards whom Doc never really made up his mind over whether he preferred one or the other. I think Doc flaws in both games and just tried to maximize the matchups but that philosophy lead to inconsistent play from both for a good part of the year.

He also resigned two guys that Doc had buried on the end of the bench for the playoffs until Sam Cassell couldn't hit a shot for like 6 straight games at which time Doc finally played Eddie House some, but not exclusively even though Sam was god awful.

He has then brought in a small forward that has been determined to be physically unable to resume an NBA career my more than one doctor, a center with size and athleticism but possibly nothing more, and two guys drafted 30th or later in the draft.

And he still has two leftovers from last years team that spent almost the entire season not on the active list for games.

So Doc has been handed a team with 5 guys he trusts, maybe even only 4 if you count the fact that Danny doesn't like playing Perk in the fourth quarter. That leaves 10-11 guys, depending on how you look at things, Danny knows nothing about and/or had little to no faith in when it came down to playing for keeps in the playoffs.

To me that signals tons of minutes for the starters and what many Doc detractors will call a "jerking around of the minutes" of the other guys because he doesn't trust their games. Doc will constantly be searching for the hot hand. Expect the bench to come in and produce or get the hook quick and unfortunately, as Roy said, that has been Doc's M.O. during the lean, non veteran years that he has been here.

I still think this team goes to the ECF but my fear is that if Doc doesn't find his top 9 and go with those guys, the starters will be toast come the late playoffs.

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 12:17:28 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.

  I think Doc handled this pretty well in the playoffs last year. He had plenty of options (House or Cassell, Powe or Davis or PJ, Posey or TA) but he kept his rotations pretty small and played whoever he thought would succeed in a given situation. He didn't go with the same rotation throughout the playoffs yet he didn't switch who he went with game by game or half by half. 

Right:  By default, Doc went to his vets.  Our "top 8" was the starters plus Posey, Cassell, and P.J.  That stayed *very* consistent in the playoffs, except when Cassell's slump forced Doc's hand.  The man loves veterans.  When those vets weren't available, or when younger guys needed to be played, Doc was much more prone to play hunches (Powe vs. BBD, etc.), which sometimes worked, and sometimes didn't.

I don't think this roster plays to Doc's strengths, and I'm a bit disappointed in it.

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Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 12:35:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.

  I think Doc handled this pretty well in the playoffs last year. He had plenty of options (House or Cassell, Powe or Davis or PJ, Posey or TA) but he kept his rotations pretty small and played whoever he thought would succeed in a given situation. He didn't go with the same rotation throughout the playoffs yet he didn't switch who he went with game by game or half by half. 

Right:  By default, Doc went to his vets.  Our "top 8" was the starters plus Posey, Cassell, and P.J.  That stayed *very* consistent in the playoffs, except when Cassell's slump forced Doc's hand.  The man loves veterans.  When those vets weren't available, or when younger guys needed to be played, Doc was much more prone to play hunches (Powe vs. BBD, etc.), which sometimes worked, and sometimes didn't.

I don't think this roster plays to Doc's strengths, and I'm a bit disappointed in it.

  Powe was playing the bulk of the backup big minutes for the first 10 games of the playoffs. He didn't switch over to playing PJ over Leon until the middle of the Cleveland series.

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 01:13:31 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I personally love the way Doc has handled younger players. 

2 seasons ago he turned the most disastrous season in C's history into a success by not winning games, but turning his rookies and unproven players INTO proven players, then Danny did the rest.

I like to think Doc is not alone in this years quest.  Danny is the mastermind and will most likely be with Doc every step of the way.. I think they have a great relationship and I doubt the line between Coach and GM is as thick in Boston as it may be in other places.  That can only benefit us since Doc's style isn't to be the head honcho/big personality type of coach. 










Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 01:19:36 PM »

Offline zerophase

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Quote
I'm disappointed in the roster that Danny has handed Doc.  I don't think it fits well with Doc's coaching style of coaching, which emphasizes veterans.  I'm also a bit concerned because Doc has struggled when he has too many options; he's better when he's handed a roster with clearly defined roles on it, and he certainly hasn't been given that.  Lastly, I'm a bit concerned that a team full of so many inconsistent and/or inexperienced youngsters don't fit well with Doc's "mass line changes" / "four man bench units" philosophy.

Meh. I think your going overboard. In the NBA really its only the top 8 or 9 that matter. And the only player that's gone out of that is Posey. So your disappointed Posey's not back. Time will tell how big an impact that is. I say it's pretty small. PJ might come back for the playoffs..

Pete 

wasn't it opening night where we trashed the wizards, even with a healthy gilbert, butler, and jamison without posey, as he was serving a suspension?

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Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 04:33:04 PM »

Offline bolvbball

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There is usually growth in players from season to season,especially when they win a championship.I

expect Doc has grown as a coach as well.I bet he will capitalize on his mistakes in the past,use

those lessons to his advantage as a coach in the future,.House was Doc biggest error in judgement

during the playoffs. Doc didn't show much confidence in House,far from being a youth.Im not positive

that Doc is always calling the shots,when it comes to who is given the greenlight at times.It almost

seems like DA wanted Sam to have the bulk of the minutes,regardless of whether it was wrong or not

.I do not  want to think,that any good coach would let that go the way it did for so long.I

want to think Doc is better than that.

Re: The forgotten summer subject: Doc Rivers.
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 05:02:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is usually growth in players from season to season,especially when they win a championship.I

expect Doc has grown as a coach as well.I bet he will capitalize on his mistakes in the past,use

those lessons to his advantage as a coach in the future,.House was Doc biggest error in judgement

during the playoffs. Doc didn't show much confidence in House,far from being a youth.Im not positive

that Doc is always calling the shots,when it comes to who is given the greenlight at times.It almost

seems like DA wanted Sam to have the bulk of the minutes,regardless of whether it was wrong or not

.I do not  want to think,that any good coach would let that go the way it did for so long.I

want to think Doc is better than that.
Then Danny Ainge must be a pretty bad GM in your opinion considering he forced Doc to play the pathetic Sam Cassell when it was obvious to even the most simple and naive of basketball fans that Sam couldn't hit the ocean with a basketball if he was sailing in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.