If One Must Go...Powe Over Big Baby

[Fan from VT]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

Myth #2: Why, in your description, is "poor outside shot" a negative for Powe, but "improving outside shot" is a positive for Big Baby? Both were not good at shooting last year, but Powe was actually better than Davis at jumpers. powe also shoots better from free throws, which hints that his shooting form is better and he has more potential to hit jumpers consistently.

[billysan]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

Myth #2: Why, in your description, is "poor outside shot" a negative for Powe, but "improving outside shot" is a positive for Big Baby? Both were not good at shooting last year, but Powe was actually better than Davis at jumpers. powe also shoots better from free throws, which hints that his shooting form is better and he has more potential to hit jumpers consistently.

I think the upside argument in favor of Davis is based on his (hopefully) losing weight. The assumption is that with 20-30 lbs less he becomes much mobile and more athletic than Leon Powe, especially with the injury history that Leon has had.

As for shooting a jumper, I dont see much from either. Neither gets off the floor well enough to be a decent short range jump shooter IMO. They will be blocked by guards. I agree that Leon Powe currently has a far superior stroke at the free throw line. 

[PerkinsERA43]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

Myth #2: Why, in your description, is "poor outside shot" a negative for Powe, but "improving outside shot" is a positive for Big Baby? Both were not good at shooting last year, but Powe was actually better than Davis at jumpers. powe also shoots better from free throws, which hints that his shooting form is better and he has more potential to hit jumpers consistently.

I think the upside argument in favor of Davis is based on his (hopefully) losing weight. The assumption is that with 20-30 lbs less he becomes much mobile and more athletic than Leon Powe, especially with the injury history that Leon has had.

As for shooting a jumper, I dont see much from either. Neither gets off the floor well enough to be a decent short range jump shooter IMO. They will be blocked by guards. I agree that Leon Powe currently has a far superior stroke at the free throw line. 

Let me clear a few things up, because I think there is some confusion as to what my point was:

1. I would keep Powe over Davis. That may have been unclear due to the thread title, sorry.

2. As for the poor outside shot vs. improving outside shot, I based that distinction off of the fact that Baby shot a good many more jumpers than Leon did last season. He used the 15-18 footer as part of his repitoire (albeit not very effectively), while Leon only shot anything outside of the paint when there were two seconds on the shot clock. That is no slight to Leon, though, because I approve of that. His game is low post. Still, when that is all put to the side, I'd still like to point out that having a higher FT % may signify a purer stroke, but not necessarily an ability to shoot jumpers. Anyone who has played basketball at a high school or higher level can tell you that shooting over a defender, or with someone running at you is much different from taking an uncontested FT. baby showed some ability to shoot the ball under pressure, while Leon did not. That is the basis of my argument.

3. I would say one of the key points I cite to tilt the balance in favor of POWE is that Davis has a risky weight condition. His weight could potentially spiral out of control, ruining his career. After all, he does have an eating problem that affects his stamina and athleticism.

That is all, thank you for reading.

/Era out

[phantom]

Pierce shoots a three.
It clangs off the back of the rim.
Who do you want aiding KG in getting that board or throwing some dudes around in there?
To me, Powe is the choice.  I feel better imagining him in those situations than I do with Davis.  I think Powe is a crafty inside player that is showing wisdom beyond his years, and we know he's a genius at getting to the free throw line.  You even heard it from the veteran players themselves- calling him "grown man" because that's his demeanor. 
Big Baby is great too, I don't want him traded.  As has been said before, it's not like both players do the exact same things.  You never know what the opposing team's defense is going to throw at you, and once in a while a guy will go out there and get kinda "stuck" in it, which I've seen happen to Powe just a *little* bit more than Davis.  Davis seems to be able to go with the flow a little bit easier on offense.
But nothing beats a Leon delivered offensive board + putback + free throw in my book.  I would miss that sequence for life if we had to trade it away.  So yes, Leon all the way.  Til retirement.

[P2]

In the end, I don't think either will leave and we will re-sign both at the end of this season. Teams like small ball, and Baby will do just fine at the backup C if we want to go small (like against Tim Duncan).

[Bankshot]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

I think Baby has more upside because he simply has more skills than Powe, imo.  Baby is a better defender, showed the ability to make some great passes at times, something Powe has never done and he seems to have a higher BBIQ than Powe.  I say this because Baby was able to grasp the offense and defensive schemes as a rookie, while Powe was still struggling with it in his second season, which is the reason Baby was getting some playing time over Powe until he hit a bit of a rookie wall.  Even as far as the playoffs this year, Doc was pulling Powe out for still missing defensive assignments.  Baby can defend bigger players at backup center where Powe cannot.  So while Powe can play backup PF effectively, Baby can play PF and center.  Also it appeared to me that Baby was more effective playing center alongside KG than Powe.

All that being said, I don't want to get rid of either.  I love both of these guys.  Right now I would choose Powe, but I still think Baby will be the better player in a year or two provided he continues to work hard and keep his body in shape.  Of course that could be a big if.

[Greg]

For some reason... I thought you said Leon ".0001 assist" Powe was a better outlet passer.

Maybe that was just me.

[BillfromBoston]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

Myth #2: Why, in your description, is "poor outside shot" a negative for Powe, but "improving outside shot" is a positive for Big Baby? Both were not good at shooting last year, but Powe was actually better than Davis at jumpers. powe also shoots better from free throws, which hints that his shooting form is better and he has more potential to hit jumpers consistently.

...nicely done...

[BillfromBoston]

Good post, but 2 points I quibble with:

Myth #1: Big Baby has more upside. Why? because he was drafted more recently? because he's a significantly inferior player so far? Both were first round talents with questions: injuries for Powe vs. conditioning for Big Baby. #Powe was much more highly regarded coming out of high school than Big Baby, and, when healthy, he put up better college numbers, and has outperformed Davis as a pro as well.

Myth #2: Why, in your description, is "poor outside shot" a negative for Powe, but "improving outside shot" is a positive for Big Baby? Both were not good at shooting last year, but Powe was actually better than Davis at jumpers. powe also shoots better from free throws, which hints that his shooting form is better and he has more potential to hit jumpers consistently.

I think the upside argument in favor of Davis is based on his (hopefully) losing weight. The assumption is that with 20-30 lbs less he becomes much mobile and more athletic than Leon Powe, especially with the injury history that Leon has had.

As for shooting a jumper, I dont see much from either. Neither gets off the floor well enough to be a decent short range jump shooter IMO. They will be blocked by guards. I agree that Leon Powe currently has a far superior stroke at the free throw line. 

...I don't know where this "Powe isn't athletic" stuff keeps coming from--do you not remember how many times he exploded off the ground and packed it over 1 or 2 defenders?

No matter how much weight Davis loses, he's never going to have more lift than Powe-Leon's got plenty of power and explosiveness...

[gar]

I think Powe's trade value is higher although both have big question marks. If Cal Landry has trouble finding a long term home, it gives you some idea about the market for undersized PF/C. Landry may be a more of a complete player than either Powe or BBD.

BBD can play the high post better which makes his role a little diff than Powe's.

[EJPLAYA]

actually, in a very tiny correction to the above, neither of them look to be very good passers so far.

powe posted assist averages of 0.2 and 0.3 his first two years.

davis put up an average of 0.4 assists his first year.

this is strictly recollection and anectodal, but i recall powe mostly as getting the ball down low and working like heck to get off a shot. i dont recall him passing much to other players who then scored. maybe not totally a black hole, but he doesnt seem to be good creating scoring opportunities for teammates so far.

i know this is not his primary job, and he has only 2 seasons. but assist averages of 0.2 and 0.3 aint nothing to write home about.

davis, if my poor memory serves correctly, plays farther away from the rim then power, which one could argue would increase the number of assists. but the stats still dont support that idea.

still, this is a small point for comparing two backup PF i guess.

How could either one of them get any assists out there on the floor?! They were playing with Cassell. IF Sam passes you the ball you know you better shoot it immediately. It ISN'T coming back to you again!

Don't hate on Sam. I remember reading an interview of his talking about how Doc Rivers actually wanted him to shoot like that b/c usually when Cassell was on the floor, there we no shooters around him. No one seems to notice that House played almost that exact same role. Shoot first then pass, if you pass, run to an open spot for the ball back to shoot.

Hating on Sam is very easy. He was a huge bust signing last year. He did absolutely nothing but take House's minutes away. House was also NOT a shoot first player. He always looked to move the ball and go set a pick before sitting on the three point line. Then if someone drove and needed to dish he was there. Sam was shoot first, second, and third. If the team was so enamored with the play of Sam he would be on the squad right now. They realize as well that Sam did not fit into our team like they had hoped. Best non-signing of the off season.

In directing it back to the topic, I guarantee that if he had dropped the ball into either one of these guys in the post, especially Powe, that he would have had 2-3 more assists a game and a lot more happy teammates and fans. Both players are good options on the block.   

[PerkinsERA43]

For some reason... I thought you said Leon ".0001 assist" Powe was a better outlet passer.

Maybe that was just me.

I did say that. He is a good *outlet* passer. You don't normally get an assist on an outlet (which is a pass up the floor after securing a rebound, in case you didn't know), so using his low assist numbers to illustrate an inability to throw the outlet isn't really fair. He gets the ball down the floor quickly when he grabs a rebound. That all I'm sayin'.

[Sweet17]

I am not confident BBD can stick in the league. The idea that we should keep him at let Powe go is ridiculous. Not only is Powe better statistically - not to mention far more athletic ot boot.. He has the kind of self-discipline it takes to grow in this league.

Let's face facts players who come in the league with a weight problem have a long history of disaster. For every Perkins there are a half-dozen Tractor Trailers and Big Country Reeves..

Pete

[zerophase]

this thread topic just will never end. over and over again we argue about the same thing with each side having valid arguments... gesh this is turning into politics. anyways, in my opinion powe is better.

[hwangjini_1]

this thread topic just will never end. over and over again we argue about the same thing with each side having valid arguments... gesh this is turning into politics. anyways, in my opinion powe is better.

look on the bright side. at least no one has tried to interject gerald green or toine into this thread. (or did i just do that?!?!?!?!?!?)