Owe alot of thanks to Seattle for #17- Ainge wanted Swift instead of Jefferson

[footey]

Don't know if this was already mentioned, but good thing we did not give up Jiri Welch before that draft, because we later traded him to Cleveland for the pick that was swapped with Phoenix to get Rondo, right???

[johnnyrondo]

After trading for Telfair Danny said that he thought Telfair was better than any point guard in the draft and with the rule changes that he envisioned Telfair having the same potential as ROY Chris Paul. I was in Boston at the time and I heard and read the quotes. Don't be blinded by your unconditional Danny Man Love. It's like Theo Epstein. He's not perfect either. One can give him credit without blindly saying that the Matt Clement and Edgar Renteria signings post '04 WS were great signings. You say that everything Danny does is great. That's your opinion. You're wrong. I don't know why you are keeping this up. If you think Danny Ainge is reading this and will send you an autographed picture of him with his shirt off you're wrong about that too.

[winsomme]

I’m not sure if this was mentioned but who’s to say Al Jefferson isn’t a product of superb development and coaching? Maybe Swift would have developed sooner under Doc Rivers system and been equally as marketable as Jefferson as a centerpiece for a trade of that magnitude. Who knows?

I do know The Celtics have done a tremendous job of developing and marketing players to the point we thought Gerald Green was going to be the next Tracy Mcgrady and the same type of development and hype could have applied to Swift… It’s all revisionist history at this point anyway.

good point. TP. i think the only fair analysis is that he liked both players and stayed at 10 thinking one would drop to him and he didn't want to overpay to move up....what would have happened if the draft played out differently...we really have no idea....

the fact is that it worked out and the rest is history. sometimes staying where you are is just as important a GM decision as making a big splash to move up. it just doesn't get the same burn.

[JSD]

I’m not sure if this was mentioned but who’s to say Al Jefferson isn’t a product of superb development and coaching? Maybe Swift would have developed sooner under Doc Rivers system and been equally as marketable as Jefferson as a centerpiece for a trade of that magnitude. Who knows?

I do know The Celtics have done a tremendous job of developing and marketing players to the point we thought Gerald Green was going to be the next Tracy Mcgrady and the same type of development and hype could have applied to Swift… It’s all revisionist history at this point anyway.

good point. TP. i think the only fair analysis is that he liked both players and stayed at 10 thinking one would drop to him and he didn't want to overpay to move up....what would have happened if the draft played out differently...we really have no idea....

the fact is that it worked out and the rest is history. sometimes staying where you are is just as important a GM decision as making a big splash to move up. it just doesn't get the same burn.

Thanks winsomme,

Tp for a solid follow up post. Minor correction, Ainge stayed pat on pick #15

[winsomme]

After trading for Telfair Danny said that he thought Telfair was better than any point guard in the draft and with the rule changes that he envisioned Telfair having the same potential as ROY Chris Paul. I was in Boston at the time and I heard and read the quotes. Don't be blinded by your unconditional Danny Man Love. It's like Theo Epstein. He's not perfect either. One can give him credit without blindly saying that the Matt Clement and Edgar Renteria signings post '04 WS were great signings. You say that everything Danny does is great. That's your opinion. You're wrong. I don't know why you are keeping this up. If you think Danny Ainge is reading this and will send you an autographed picture of him with his shirt off you're wrong about that too.

i don't remember any of those quotes. what i think he said is if Telfair had gone on to college (Louisville i believe it was) and was IN that draft, he would be one of the top prospects. which certainly is very reasonable. Telfair would have torn it up in college, especially at Louisville and could have been a high profile pick in the 2006 draft...

[winsomme]

I’m not sure if this was mentioned but who’s to say Al Jefferson isn’t a product of superb development and coaching? Maybe Swift would have developed sooner under Doc Rivers system and been equally as marketable as Jefferson as a centerpiece for a trade of that magnitude. Who knows?

I do know The Celtics have done a tremendous job of developing and marketing players to the point we thought Gerald Green was going to be the next Tracy Mcgrady and the same type of development and hype could have applied to Swift… It’s all revisionist history at this point anyway.

good point. TP. i think the only fair analysis is that he liked both players and stayed at 10 thinking one would drop to him and he didn't want to overpay to move up....what would have happened if the draft played out differently...we really have no idea....

the fact is that it worked out and the rest is history. sometimes staying where you are is just as important a GM decision as making a big splash to move up. it just doesn't get the same burn.

Thanks winsomme,

Tp for a solid follow up post. Minor correction, Ainge stayed pat on pick #15

right, i was thinking about the Pierce pick....too many past draft convo's going on simultaneously....thanks.

[dooyork]

Yep, Jiri was the key to everything.

1) He was acquired in the same deal that brought us Raef, and was described as one of the key pieces.  Raef's deal was packaged for Ratliff's, which was sent to Minnesota in the KG trade;

2) Danny refused to include him in a trade for Robert Swift, leaving us to "settle" for Al Jefferson, who was sent to Minnesota in the KG trade;

3) Jiri was eventually traded to Cleveland for a #1 pick.  That #1 pick was traded to Phoenix for Rajon Rondo.

Clearly, Jiri was one of the most influential players in Celtics history.

They should retire #44 for Jiri Welsch just like they retired Macauley's number for being the trade bait that brought Bill Russell.

[Birdbrain]

I just have a problem with posters making up things to try and cover there tracks.  Please link me to where Danny said Telfair could be Chris Paul or that Danny stated he was going to draft Swift but, didn't because he was gone.  I don't believe any of that is true so that's why I'm keeping this up. I also don't believe he had any inkling of taking Yi last year but, I bet you find someone that believes that as well. You're making wild accusations and stating them as facts.  Shouldn't you have proof?  I was half joking about him being a Master but, even the people that couldn't see how good he was a few years ago should be bending over backwards with compliments now.  Oh and I don't care much for the Red Sox or their nation.

[winsomme]

I just have a problem with posters making up things to try and cover there tracks.  Please link me to where Danny said Telfair could be Chris Paul or that Danny stated he was going to draft Swift but, didn't because he was gone.  I don't believe any of that is true so that's why I'm keeping this up. I also don't believe he had any inkling of taking Yi last year but, I bet you find someone that believes that as well. You're making wild accusations and stating them as facts.  Shouldn't you have proof?  I was half joking about him being a Master but, even the people that couldn't see how good he was a few years ago should be bending over backwards with compliments now.  Oh and I don't care much for the Red Sox or their nation.

my thing on the Swift angle is that there were a lot of reports that he liked Swift. i don't deny that. but at the end of the day, he stood pat, and to me that speaks to the rationale that he liked both and was comfortable taking either one...and what would have happened if the draft played out differently is speculation. "reports" are not enough to make things a fact. as with the "reports" that Seattle wanted Jefferson, but when it came time to actually make the pick, they passed on Big Al and took Swift...

on the Telfair stuff, at the time i was disappointed by the trade, but recognized that we wouldn't be able to fully judge it until we found out what Danny did with Theo's contract. and in that regard, i think we can see, that trade ended up being great...

[steve]

Ainge went to see Telfair play in highschool.  They showed hime in "Through the Fire". 

[BballTim]

After trading for Telfair Danny said that he thought Telfair was better than any point guard in the draft and with the rule changes that he envisioned Telfair having the same potential as ROY Chris Paul. I was in Boston at the time and I heard and read the quotes.

  I remember after the draft that Ainge said that Telfair and Rondo were the best pgs in that draft. But are you surprised that he talked up Telfair after the trade? What would you expect to hear, that we traded a top 7 pick for financial flexibility?

[Cman]

The truth is, we have no idea who Danny really wanted to draft (Swift or Jefferson).  But whichever the case, you know he loves the fact that people can't figure him out.  That's really all he cares about.

[Sweet17]

^^^No. All Danny cares about is making the Celtics better. I am sure he would admit that Swift would have been a mistake. Just like Brandon Roy for Telfair was a mistake. Or that Gerald Green was a mistake..Or that Marcus Banks was a mistake..

On balance despite those errors we have a championship. No one bats a 1.00. GMs take too much crap when a draft doesn't work out. It's going to happen to the best of them.

Pete

[cooleststan]

No, this one is pretty much confirmed as true.  Not only did Danny want Swift on draft night, but it's been reported that he contacted Seattle numerous times about him, including after we drafted Gerald Green, and in last year's discussions involving Ray Allen.

Danny really liked Swift, and would have taken him.  Of course, we have no idea if Danny's faith in Swift was founded, because he can't stay healthy.

what exactly is confirmed as "true"?

Danny liking Swift doesn't mean he would have taken him over Big Al because Big Al ALSO was not supposed to be there when we picked....

Danny wanting to draft Swift also doesn't confirm anything because we have no idea of how they viewed the relative value of either.

i have never seen a report that stacked up Swift vs Big Al. in fact, the surprise was that Big Al slipped to us....

The rumors pre-draft were that we loved Swift first, and Big Al second.  Everyone knew this.  It wasn't a shock when we chose Big Al, but it was clear to pundits at the time that he was the second choice.

Conveniently, now, people want to act like the Swift choice was a "smoke screen", despite Danny's purported second choice (Big Al) being the player we actually took.  It's not much of a "smoke screen" when you take one of the players everyone had been linking you to for weeks (much like happened the year before, where Ainge's desire for Marcus Banks was well known by everyone).

Why all the revisionist history?  Danny liked a player better than Big Al.  Who knows -- maybe Swift justified Danny's infatuation, and only hasn't reached his potential due to injuries.  It's no way a slight against Danny, but it certainly does show that sometimes luck plays a big factor in successful drafting.

Anyway, here's how Steve Bulpett described it immediately after the draft:

Yeah, the Celtics got one of the guys they'd targeted with the 15th pick.

But that didn't stop Danny Ainge from spending much of yesterday trying to move up to assure himself of his fondest wish.

The Celts offered No. 15 and either 24 or 25 to get up for high school 7-footer Robert Swift. Managing partner Wyc Grousbeck was even willing to part with cash to sweeten the deal. But all of that wasn't enough to get it done.

When clubs ahead asked for 15 and Jiri Welsch, the conversations ended.

So the Celtics opened their arms and took 19-year-old power forward Al Jefferson at 15.
...
`There were deal possibilities,'' said Ainge, ``but as it unfolded and it looked like we were going to get Jefferson or Swift - those were the two guys we targeted as the top big guys - then we didn't really want to pay the price to do anything different.

``We felt like we had to get one of those two guys, Swift or Jefferson, and that's where the contingencies were built. But just a combination of picks wasn't going to do it. It would have had to be a player. Teams had interest in Jiri, and we didn't want to make that sacrifice. We think Jiri is better than a lot of the guys that were being drafted from 5-10.''

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Um... if seattle wanted jefferson, then they would have picked him instead of swift. so that doesn't make any sense.
also, He quoted a reliable source saying that the celtics were willing to trade up to get swift.
End of story. You fail.

first, that's my whole point....the fact that Seattle DIDN'T take Jefferson even though they were "reported" to love him....hello!! They must not have wanted him, even though that was what was being "reported"...at least not relative to Swift.

second, are you really saying that ESPN is not a reliable source?

wow, am I talking to a brick? what does that have to do with anything? You don't seem to understand english, or realize that you are completely wrong either. I'm done trying to help you, bye

[winsomme]

No, this one is pretty much confirmed as true.  Not only did Danny want Swift on draft night, but it's been reported that he contacted Seattle numerous times about him, including after we drafted Gerald Green, and in last year's discussions involving Ray Allen.

Danny really liked Swift, and would have taken him.  Of course, we have no idea if Danny's faith in Swift was founded, because he can't stay healthy.

what exactly is confirmed as "true"?

Danny liking Swift doesn't mean he would have taken him over Big Al because Big Al ALSO was not supposed to be there when we picked....

Danny wanting to draft Swift also doesn't confirm anything because we have no idea of how they viewed the relative value of either.

i have never seen a report that stacked up Swift vs Big Al. in fact, the surprise was that Big Al slipped to us....

The rumors pre-draft were that we loved Swift first, and Big Al second.  Everyone knew this.  It wasn't a shock when we chose Big Al, but it was clear to pundits at the time that he was the second choice.

Conveniently, now, people want to act like the Swift choice was a "smoke screen", despite Danny's purported second choice (Big Al) being the player we actually took.  It's not much of a "smoke screen" when you take one of the players everyone had been linking you to for weeks (much like happened the year before, where Ainge's desire for Marcus Banks was well known by everyone).

Why all the revisionist history?  Danny liked a player better than Big Al.  Who knows -- maybe Swift justified Danny's infatuation, and only hasn't reached his potential due to injuries.  It's no way a slight against Danny, but it certainly does show that sometimes luck plays a big factor in successful drafting.

Anyway, here's how Steve Bulpett described it immediately after the draft:

Yeah, the Celtics got one of the guys they'd targeted with the 15th pick.

But that didn't stop Danny Ainge from spending much of yesterday trying to move up to assure himself of his fondest wish.

The Celts offered No. 15 and either 24 or 25 to get up for high school 7-footer Robert Swift. Managing partner Wyc Grousbeck was even willing to part with cash to sweeten the deal. But all of that wasn't enough to get it done.

When clubs ahead asked for 15 and Jiri Welsch, the conversations ended.

So the Celtics opened their arms and took 19-year-old power forward Al Jefferson at 15.
...
`There were deal possibilities,'' said Ainge, ``but as it unfolded and it looked like we were going to get Jefferson or Swift - those were the two guys we targeted as the top big guys - then we didn't really want to pay the price to do anything different.

``We felt like we had to get one of those two guys, Swift or Jefferson, and that's where the contingencies were built. But just a combination of picks wasn't going to do it. It would have had to be a player. Teams had interest in Jiri, and we didn't want to make that sacrifice. We think Jiri is better than a lot of the guys that were being drafted from 5-10.''

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Um... if seattle wanted jefferson, then they would have picked him instead of swift. so that doesn't make any sense.
also, He quoted a reliable source saying that the celtics were willing to trade up to get swift.
End of story. You fail.

first, that's my whole point....the fact that Seattle DIDN'T take Jefferson even though they were "reported" to love him....hello!! They must not have wanted him, even though that was what was being "reported"...at least not relative to Swift.

second, are you really saying that ESPN is not a reliable source?

wow, am I talking to a brick? what does that have to do with anything? You don't seem to understand english, or realize that you are completely wrong either. I'm done trying to help you, bye

what are you talking about, man?

people said that Ainge wanted Swift over BIg Al and used "reports" to back this up as a fact.

i pointed out that there were "reports" that Seattle wanted to pick Big Al over Swift, but the "reports" were wrong because when Seattle had the choice between to two they chose Swift.

if the "reports" were wrong about Seattle preferring BIg Al over Swift (we KNOW this because they CHOSE Swift), then why couldn't the "reports" have been wrong that Ainge preferred Swift over Big Al.....just like they were PROVEN wrong about Seattle preferring Big Al over Swift?

'kay? capisce? 'yam say?