Hanging from the rafters / What would Ray & KG have to do to get their numbers retired? (merged)

[paintitgreen]

I wish there was a way to go back and change the retired numbers thing to a Ring of Honor. You could have all the guys with retired numbers/items up there - Macauley, Cooz, Ramsey, Tommy, Sharman, K.C., Sam, Russell, Walter Brown, Satch Sanders, Nellie, Loscy, Hondo, Cowens, Jo Jo, Red, DJ, Larry, McHale, Reggie, Chief, Cornbread and Most. Except instead of looking up wondering, hey, what's that number stand for? people can look around and see the names of the players. The 2 major names for the franchise - Brown and Auerbach - can be set off on the ends of the arena in slightly larger writing.

And with a Ring of Honor, you can add some other guys who would never qualify for getting numbers retired, but might deserve some mention. Guys like Ainge, Paul Silas, Tiny, Walton, Don Chaney, maybe someone like Bailey Howell (who was on 2 championship teams and made an All Star as a Celtic, something Maxwell never did). Their numbers could be listed next to them, but not retired, except for a few.

Of course there should still be retired numbers, but there should be some sort of qualifications. My idea would be at least one championship won in Boston, at least one major honor won in Boston and at least five All-Star appearances as a Celtic. The "major honor" to me should ideally be an MVP Award, All-NBA First Team selection, or Finals MVP Award.

This is who qualifies by my criteria:

1) Bob Cousy - 14 - 6 titles, 1 MVP Award, 10 All-NBA First Teams, 2 All-NBA Second Teams, 13 All-Star selections, 2 All-Star Game MVPs

2) Bill Sharman – 21 - 4 titles, 4 All-NBA First Teams, 3 All-NBA Second Teams, 8 All-Star selections, 1 All-Star Game MVP

3) Bill Russell - 6 - 11 titles, 5 MVP Awards, 3 All-NBA First Teams, 8 All-NBA Second Teams, 1 All-Defensive First Team (only began in 1969), 12 All-Star selections, 1 All-Star Game MVP

4) John Havlicek – 17 - 8 titles, 1 Finals MVP, 4 All-NBA First Teams, 7 All-NBA Second Teams, 5 All-Defensive First Teams, 3 All-Defensive Second Teams, 13 All-Star selections

5) Dave Cowens – 28 - 2 titles, 1 MVP, 3 All-NBA First Teams, 1 All-Defensive First Team, 2 All-Defensive Second Teams, 7 All-Star selections, 1 All-Star Game MVP

6) Jo Jo White – 10 - 2 titles, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All-NBA Second Teams, 7 All-Star selections

7) Larry Bird – 33 - 3 titles, 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, 9 All-NBA First Teams, 1 All-NBA Second Team, 3 All-Defensive Second Teams, 12 All-Star selections, 1 All-Star Game MVP

Kevin McHale – 32 - 3 titles, 1 All-NBA First Team, 3 All-Defensive First Teams, 3 All-Defensive Second Teams, 2 Sixth Man Awards, 7 All-Star selections

9) Paul Pierce - 34 - 1 title, 1 Finals MVP, 3 All-NBA Third Teams, 6 All-Star selections

Unfortunately, the criteria doesn't completely work. A few guys get left off who ought to be there based on who is there.

First, if Jo Jo White and Paul Pierce make it because their "major honor" is winning a Finals MVP award, that's an unfair advantage for a few guys who won plenty of titles before a Finals MVP award was given out, namely Sam Jones and Tommy Heinsohn. Here's their numbers:

Sam Jones - 24 - 10 titles, 2 All-NBA Second Teams, 5 All-Star selections

Tommy Heinsohn – 15 - 8 titles, Rookie of Year, 4 All-NBA Second Teams, 6 All-Star selections

They compare pretty favorably to Jo Jo, and I think it's reasonable to guess that each could have won a Finals MVP if the award had been given out in their time. Tommy was the Celtics leading playoff scorer in 1957 (22.6 ppg and 11.7 rpg), 1960 (21.8 and 9.7), 1961 (19.7 and 9.9) and 1963 (24.7 and 8.9), and if I'm not mistaken led the Celtics with 30+ points in Game 7 of the 57 Finals to win the Celtics their first title in Tommy's rookie season. Sam was the Celtics leading playoff scorer in 1964 (23.2), 1965 (28.6) and 1966 (24.. Both those guys probably would (or at least easily could) have won one Finals MVP award in their day (along with 1 or 2 more for Havlicek, 1 or 2 for Cooz and a bunch for Russell).

Of course, the old guys have an advantage in that making the All-NBA First Team is a lot easier when there are fewer players. There were 8 teams back in the day. So you had to be the top 5 out of 96. Now, to make First Team, you have to be Top 5 out of 360. That's a huge advantage for a guy like Sharman. He repeatedly made First Teams, but the First Team back then could be compared to making ANY All-NBA Team now. He and McHale would be the two guys who make it solely by virtue of All-NBA First Team selections. Still, I think that's sufficient. It just makes it tougher for guys in later years.

Finally, if we're letting McHale join Bird in the rafters, I think it's appropriate to put the Big 3 up there together and include the Chief. They really do go hand in hand.

Robert Parish – 00 - 3 titles, 1 All-NBA Second Team, 1 All-NBA Third Team, 9 All-Star selections

McHale might have the All-NBA First Team selection over Parish, and was probably a better player, but not so much so that he should have 32 retired and Chief's 00 shouldn't be retired.

[paintitgreen]

Applying the criteria to current Celtics, Pierce would make it by virtue of the fact that he has won a title and a Finals MVP and made 6 All-Star teams as a Celtic. That would get him in.

KG has his title and major honor (All-NBA First Team), and to me, would need 4 more All-Star seasons as a Celtic.

Ray would need 4 more All-Star seasons and a major honor as a Celtic. Since his days of contending for All-NBA First Teams are over, his only hope would be to earn Finals MVP in another Celtics championship season. To me, unlikely.

However, my actual criteria are meaningless since guys like KC Jones, Don Nelson and Cedric Maxwell who didn't make All-Star teams have had their numbers retired. Come to think of it, DJ was never an All Star as a Celtic. So, given how things are done now, I think expectations are lowered a bit and there's no specific numbers that are needed. Extra championships would be huge, but it also depends on how much of a contribution each guy gives. If KG and Ray do for the next two years what they did this year(minus Ray's collapse in the Conference Semis of course), that would be enough for me (of course, that would mean the Celtics three-peated).

More realistically, I would say this: If KG makes the All Star team each of the remaining years on his Celtic contract, and the team remains in contention during that time, I'd retire his number, whether we win a title or not.

For Ray, it's gonna take more contributing to championships. I don't demand or expect he keeps making All Star teams (although with the stride he started hitting in the Finals, Ray's days of being an All-Star player might not be as over as we all thought they were a month ago). I just think the team will have to win at least one, but more likely two more titles, with Ray contributing strongly to both teams, for Ray to be considered.

On the whole, it's impossible to say what it would take for those guys to get their numbers retired. We have to wait and see what happens with their careers before we decide. All I can say is, if those guys retired right now, Pierce's 34 would be the only number retired.

[Roy Hobbs]

Come to think of it, DJ was never an All Star as a Celtic.

I don't want to nitpick, but DJ actually made it once with us, in 1985.

[paintitgreen]

I stand corrected. Thanks, Roy. Had an impressive 8 points, 6 boards and 3 assists in 12 minutes to boot.

I also want to make clear that I thoroughly agree with DJ having his number in the rafters under present criteria. He belongs up there more than some others who are there (i.e., Don Nelson, Reggie Lewis and much as I love him, Max).

[Eja117]

well this is pretty much a moot issue now...pretty sure Ray knows that

[Greenas]

KG deserves it, he was the key behind the championship and is essentially Celtic pride personified. The fact that he was loyal enough to come back instead of retiring and stick it out for 3 years says it all.

[cb8883]

KG deserves it, he was the key behind the championship and is essentially Celtic pride personified. The fact that he was loyal enough to come back instead of retiring and stick it out for 3 years says it all.

KG and Pierce are locks...

[thenotoriousjts]

If KG has three more good years with us than he should definitely be considered, and I think Pierce is a lock. I don't care how good you are (Ray), but 5 years isn't enough. I'd say the same thing if we had Shaq in his prime for 5 years.

[bfrombleacher]

#20 can still hang from the rafters...





16 seconds left. ECF. Refs did their disgusting strutting as usual and it's game 7 of the 2012/13 ECF between the Celtics and the Heat.

Celtics to inbound.

Rondo runs down the clock. 12...10...8...

Rondo weighs his options and slings it...to Ray...

"...Rondo turnover - Wait - Ray shoots!? And scores!!! Celtics up 2!!!"

LeBron inbounds, screaming profusely to the refs as he does so...hail Mary...too late!





-Post Game-

Ray: "It was muscle memory. Rondo passed me the ball and I got so used to it. Words cannot express my disappointment with myself..."





-Fast forward to a buzzer sounding. Celtics defeating the Spurs in an epic series at home. Banner 18 lifted and the C's are your 2012-13 champions. Danny is in his office, on the phone-

Danny: "You did well, Ray. I'm so sorry it had to come down to this..."

Ray: "It was a necessary evil. They were monsters. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and destroy them from within I guess."

Danny: "Yes. Justice was served. You will always be a Celtic, Ray..."

-Deafening silence as the men stared poignantly into space...-






Years later, Ray would retire. The LeBron era ended with not two, not three, not four...nothing but one championship.

#20 was indeed raised in the Garden. Some would question this decision. But most of Boston was poking fun at the decision, albeit somewhat affectionately.

The two men would live on, carrying this deep dark secret to their graves.

But, as Ray said, it was a necessary evil...




Also, Wade would have a career ending injury, having both his elbows snapped while trying to cheapshot somebody.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

KG deserves it, he was the key behind the championship and is essentially Celtic pride personified. The fact that he was loyal enough to come back instead of retiring and stick it out for 3 years says it all.

YEP. BINGO. well said.

[dark_lord]

with kg's resigning, i think he has a shot.  ray, not so much, lol

[WeMadeIt17]

I full hearted will say that Ray would have gone into the rafters on the same night of Pierce and KG if he would have stuck around. Regardless of what they would have done. That would have made him a Celtic for 7 years, won a ring, tied the record for most 3's in a finals game, and passed the all time 3's record in our jersey.. But that all changed. Now it will just be Paul and KG... And believe Rondo will somewhere down the line. But to bad he could have had such a great leagacy with Boston..

[Yoki_IsTheName]

#5 won't be available in the next ten or less years. Book it. #34 will be the same thing.

#20 might be as well, but I hope not.

[TripleOT]

If the Cs and Heat meet in the EFC again, and Ray plays as poorly as he did this past season, allowing the Cs to win it, I'd consider putting his number up then. 

[Smokeeye123]

This thread is sad now...