Author Topic: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type  (Read 15422 times)

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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 09:43:57 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Rondo's biggest problem is consistency ... and that's something that comes with age and experience ... he's getting there, but has a ways to go. I don't see how people can criticize his passing, or attacking the basket ... he can do both extremely well, and only struggles because he's so hot and cold, like the rest of the team.

This kid has been given more responsibility than any point guard of his age, and that should always be kept in mind when assessing his performance. The times Rondo plays the best is when he's given the go-ahead to play his game ... when Doc tells him to attack the basket and not worry about set plays. Every time he does, it's like Rage is a different player, and it's fun  to watch.

When it comes to following Doc's bizarre rotations, and never knowing whether he's going to be called on to play 40+ minutes, or be sitting on the bench for half the game, the kid gets a bit confused and inconsistent, and I honestly don't see why anyone's surprised. Doc's coaching follows very little logic or rationale, and any team or player under him is bound to have periods of lapses in judgement, and irregular performances.

All this analysis of our players and match-ups is great, but until we fix the main problem, the major "fly in the ointment", so to speak, these up-and-down performances are going to continue. When a team and it's players aren't put in the best position to win every game, then the result will be questionable, at best. Sorry, I really like Doc as a person, but the focus in all these threads is not in the right place.

All these players have their respective faults, but unless they're given the correct tools with which to deal with those faults, it's just not going to realize their full potential.
Bahku, dude, you know I love ya, but do we need to vent our Doc frustrations in a thread discussing Rondo's comparisons to other players and his long term efficacy?   ;D

Honestly, I don't understand Triboy's stance whatsoever. Barbosa is a good player but doesn't he play mainly as a combo guard to SG off the bench? Rondo's a starter who couldn't dream of playing SG.

I like the Mookie Blaylock comparison of celticjames although long term I think Rondo has the potential to be a better overall player. But their games are similar.

Something that needs to be said about the development of PGs in general is that the maturation of young PGs into players that can effectively run a playoff caliber team is probably the longest maturation process of all the positions in basketball. Since the dawn of the NBA young PGs have almost always had to play backup for years behind a veteran and learn the game. But in today's watered down version of the league where big money demands instant results, PGs are expected to be producing immediately.

But that is still, as it always has been, an extreme rarity. Sorry but there are only so many Magics, Isiahs, Stocktons, Archibalds, Cousys and CP3s in the history of the NBA that came straight from college and became elite PGs right away.

Walt Frazier at the same age that Rondo is now had season stats of 9.0 PTS, 4.2 REBS, 4.1 ASTS, 65% FT%, and 45.2% FG%. That from one of the all-time great PGs ever.

Dennis Johnson at 22 had 9.2 PTS, 3.7 REBS, 1.5 ASTS, 1.5 STLS, 50% FG%, 62% FT%.

And the player who I think when Rondo's career is over that he will most be compared to:

Maurice Cheeks at 22 had 8.4 PTS, 3.1 REBS, 5.3 ASTS, 2.1 STLS, 72% FT%, 51% FG%.

Todays best young PGs start younger than their contemporaries. The age comparison is best suited due to the fact that young NBA Pgs sometimes have 1-2 college years of experience and 1-3 years of pro experience by the time they were 22 whereas in yonder olden days just about everyone came out of college after 4 years.

Here's a list of all the PGs drafted in the 1st round since 2000. Tell me which you would trade for Rondo right now.

2000
8. Jamaal Crawford
10. Keyon Dooling
14. Mateen Cleaves
20. Speedy Claxson
28. Erik Barkley
2001
24. Raul Lopez
27. Jamaal Tinsley
28. Tony Parker
2002
2. Jay Williams
25. Frank Williams
28. Dan Dickau
2003
7. Kirk Hinrich
8. T. J. Ford
13. Marcus Banks
14 Luke Ridnour
16. Troy Bell
21 Boris Diaw
2004
3. Ben Gordon
4. Shaun Livingston
5. Devin Harris
13. Sebastian Telfair
20. Jameer Nelson
24. Delonte West
28. Beno Udrih
2005
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Raymond Felton
21. Nate Robinson
22. Jarrett Jack
2006
7. Randy Foye
21. Rajon Rondo
22. Marcus Williams
24. Kyle Lowry
26. Jordan Farmar
27. Sergio Rodriguez
2007
4 Mike Conley
11. Acie Law
19 Jarvis Crittendon
26. Aaron Brooks
30. Petteri Koponen

40 PGs drafted in the first round of this decade. 3 of which(Paul, D. Williams and Parker) who are clearly better than Rondo(in Parker's case as of now, maybe not at the same age).

Another 4-6 that I might take over him now but who I think he will be better than in another year or two (D. Harris, Hinrich, Tinsley, Felton, Nelson, West).

And 30 who I think he is at this point, not at the same age but at this point, he is better than.

I think this is pretty solid proof that PGs need to develop and that the ones that contribute right away, to the point that Triboy is discussing, are two or so every 10-20 years or so.

Rondo could eventually go down as the 4-6 best PG drafted in the 2000's after Parker, Paul, Williams, Baron Davis and Gilbert Arenas.

Not too shabby all in all.

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2008, 09:49:57 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Barbosa is the more hyped player. 


He is the ultimate bench combo guard. 




I would never trade Rondo for him. 


Rondo will be at his best when he is a respected shooter (he does not have to be a great shooter) 

And as he gains experience, he will have the ball in his hand more and will be given greater freedom to create and run the offense. 




Rondo is a starting PG in this league on a good team. 


Barbose could never be that unless a team has a SG/SF that is the PG on offense (think Grant Hill/Scottie Pippen) 

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2008, 11:18:15 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Rondo and Barbodse are opposites.  Rondo is a passer who does not shoot particularly well.  Barbosa is a shooter who does not pass particularly well.  Barbosa has 3 point range, Rondo doesn't.  However, Rondo is a much better rebounder and defender.

So its apples and oranges, and I don't know why the comparison was made.  A better comparison is Rondo and Tony Parker, who, like Rondo,  didn't have a jump shot when he came into the league.

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2008, 11:27:47 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Rondo and Barbodse are opposites.  Rondo is a passer who does not shoot particularly well.  Barbosa is a shooter who does not pass particularly well.  Barbosa has 3 point range, Rondo doesn't.  However, Rondo is a much better rebounder and defender.

So its apples and oranges, and I don't know why the comparison was made.  A better comparison is Rondo and Tony Parker, who, like Rondo,  didn't have a jump shot when he came into the league.

Combine them and that'd be one heck of a player, huh?  ;)

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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2008, 11:40:33 AM »

Offline Triboy16

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Barbosa/tony parker are sort of the same kind of players. Nobody considers parker as a great defender, or known for his passing. Parker is a consistant scorer but barbosa is not from what i've seen(and he has been in the league for more than 2 years now)

rondo is not consistant either so thats why i inclined to compare him to a barbosa as of now. Rondo though is a better defender than both.

I like rondo alot and i want him to be a celtic for a long time, but if we somehow aquire a mark jackson calibre type of player(draft or free agent) to play with the current team he should start imo.


« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 11:46:02 AM by Triboy16 »

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2008, 11:46:55 AM »

Offline crownsy

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Barbosa/tony parker are sort of the same kind of players. Nobody considers parker as a great defender, or known for his passing. Parker is a consistant scorer but barbosa is not from what i've seen(and he has been in the league for more than 2 years now)

rondo is not consistant either so thats why i inclined to compare him to a barbosa as of now.





parker is known as a good passer, certainly not nash level, but he's a fine passer. he runs one of the finest half court offenses in recent memoery. and he's known as a good team defender.

in no way shape, or form are barbosa and parker considered similar players. one is a oversized SG who has a great three point shot and doesn't like to drive except off the fast break, the other is a drive first/shoot 2nd guy who plays good team defense and wants to drive at every oppertunity.

also, you didn't compare rondo to barbosa now, that may have had some merit. you said that rondo's ceiling is equivilent to barbosa's.

if you want to now say that right now rondo is as comparable to barbosa, that may have some merit, but thats backpeddling. in your intial post you said you thought rondo would turn out at best to be a barbosa type player. thats much diffrent than saying in his second year he's comparable to barbosa.

also, to say if we could aquire a mark jackson type player.... mark jackson is problaey going to the hall of fame. so what your saying is if we somehow magically aquire a fourth HOF type player at the PG spot, he should start over our then 3rd year PG.

 no kidding?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 12:13:46 PM by crownsy »
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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 12:15:43 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo and Barbodse are opposites.  Rondo is a passer who does not shoot particularly well.  Barbosa is a shooter who does not pass particularly well.  Barbosa has 3 point range, Rondo doesn't.  However, Rondo is a much better rebounder and defender.

So its apples and oranges, and I don't know why the comparison was made.  A better comparison is Rondo and Tony Parker, who, like Rondo,  didn't have a jump shot when he came into the league.

Combine them and that'd be one heck of a player, huh?  ;)

  The problem is that's what people want. If you could combine Rondo's defense, rebounding, ballhandling and passing with better scoring people would be happy. But the list of PGs who fit that bill is extremely short.

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 02:11:01 PM »

Offline Shamrock

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Here's a list of all the PGs drafted in the 1st round since 2000. Tell me which you would trade for Rondo right now.



That's a great list - thanks for posting! Call me crazy - but there is no one on that list I'd trade Rondo for. 

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 02:18:57 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Here's a list of all the PGs drafted in the 1st round since 2000. Tell me which you would trade for Rondo right now.



That's a great list - thanks for posting! Call me crazy - but there is no one on that list I'd trade Rondo for. 


Chris Paul?  Deron Williams?

You're freakin' crazy!  ;)

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 02:28:34 PM »

Offline crownsy

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yea, i love rajon to death, but if we got a trade offer out of fantasy land, him for CP3 or deron willams, i'd drive him to the airport.
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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 02:29:03 PM »

Offline jgod213

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Here's a list of all the PGs drafted in the 1st round since 2000. Tell me which you would trade for Rondo right now.



That's a great list - thanks for posting! Call me crazy - but there is no one on that list I'd trade Rondo for. 


Chris Paul?  Deron Williams?

You're freakin' crazy!  ;)

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he missed the 2005 draft.  There's no other logical explanation

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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 03:20:26 PM »

Offline Bahku

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Rondo's biggest problem is consistency ... and that's something that comes with age and experience ... he's getting there, but has a ways to go. I don't see how people can criticize his passing, or attacking the basket ... he can do both extremely well, and only struggles because he's so hot and cold, like the rest of the team.

This kid has been given more responsibility than any point guard of his age, and that should always be kept in mind when assessing his performance. The times Rondo plays the best is when he's given the go-ahead to play his game ... when Doc tells him to attack the basket and not worry about set plays. Every time he does, it's like Rage is a different player, and it's fun  to watch.

When it comes to following Doc's bizarre rotations, and never knowing whether he's going to be called on to play 40+ minutes, or be sitting on the bench for half the game, the kid gets a bit confused and inconsistent, and I honestly don't see why anyone's surprised. Doc's coaching follows very little logic or rationale, and any team or player under him is bound to have periods of lapses in judgement, and irregular performances.

All this analysis of our players and match-ups is great, but until we fix the main problem, the major "fly in the ointment", so to speak, these up-and-down performances are going to continue. When a team and it's players aren't put in the best position to win every game, then the result will be questionable, at best. Sorry, I really like Doc as a person, but the focus in all these threads is not in the right place.

All these players have their respective faults, but unless they're given the correct tools with which to deal with those faults, it's just not going to realize their full potential.
Bahku, dude, you know I love ya, but do we need to vent our Doc frustrations in a thread discussing Rondo's comparisons to other players and his long term efficacy?   ;D


You know, when I began typing this, Nick, I had no intention of mentioning Doc, and yet it just naturally progressed to there, as so much does for me these days. I was also thinking at the time: Hmmmm ... strange how this got back to the coach ... I'm sure someone will jump on that! (Seems the things I'm always right about, are the things I don't want to be right about ... alas, such is life). Anyway, the short answer is: Yes, I guess we DO, especially if he, (Doc), is at the root of some of Rondo's problems, (at least partially).  ;)

When a player, especially a young player like Rage, is being given mixed signals from his coach, and told one night to stick closely to the plays called, then the next night being told to just play "his game", then it has to affect that players game, and add confusion to the mix. I honestly think that's where a lot of Rondo's shortcomings originate, and that's a large part of what's being discussed here. He's a young guy who's been given an exceptional amount of responsibility for a guy at his age and experience, (in fact, there are very few comparisons), and he's trying extremely hard to not only deal with this platter handed him, but to listen to his coaches/mentors, grow and learn what they're trying to teach him, and do his best to communicate that on the floor with his team-mates.

I don't think a lot of people here take into consideration the immense pressures and mantles that this (barely) 2nd year kid has had to take on. Those responsibilities alone would be enough to rattle and compromise the efficacy of most young men his age, and yet he accepts it with humility and grace, and goes about trying to do his best on a performance level, and please the powers-that-be at the same time. Honestly, when I stop to consider these things, along with how he has easily exceeded expectations this year and done an amazing job, (he's a good part of why we have the best record in the NBA, after all), I'm truly astonished that he hasn't had a total melt-down! (Many players in the same situation and at the same age would certainly do so).

I guess that when I see all this criticism and analysis, I feel a bit of responsibility to make sure this whole thing is kept in context, and that people are reminded from time-to-time, just how much this kid has taken on, and how extremely well he's done despite all the confusion, rotation changes, different people giving him advice/instructions, criticism at different levels, other players he's trying to please, and on and on. I certainly don't think that most people here aren't aware of these things, especially you, (for you're one of the most objective bloggers here), but I do see things in this thread that made me just want to put a reminder forth ... and just post a small reality check.

I truly feel that it won't be too many years before we're all touting this young man's contributions as one of the best point guards in the NBA ... possibly even one of the greats. Time will tell for sure, but the incredible growth and improvement I've witnessed in this kid this year, if applied on a yearly basis, is going to make for a very interesting, fun transformation to watch, and I'm extremely glad that he's ours. So let the analysis go on ... I've said my piece. But let's try to remember the mountain of responsibility that Rage is carrying on his shoulders, and the truly awesome gift we've been given in acquiring this very talented, very determined young point guard! Go C's!

(TP for the sentiment, Bud ... and the awesome post that I neglected to copy in entirety for the sake of space ... right back atcha!)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 03:29:35 PM by Bahku »
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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 04:30:57 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I don't want to sound like a Doc apologist, but....

I'm not sure it's fair to complain about how Doc has handled Rondo given that we've pretty well established that all but the most elite PGs show a lot of inconsistency early in their careers, and how much Rondo has improved in a short period of time.  Rondo is a much, MUCH better player than the guy who first set foot on the court for us two years ago; shouldn't the coaching staff get some credit for that? 

If you look at his minutes played each game as a proxy for whether Doc's been jerking him around...   it's not as bad as a lot of other young players.  There really wasn't a HUGE amount of game-by-game variance (certainly not like what BBD and Powe have to deal with), and I will grant that some of that is due to the limitations of the other PGs on the roster.  Some of it may be chicken-and-egg; Rondo only plays 22 minutes but goes 0-7?  Should he have played 30 minutes, or was Doc right to pull him out when he just didn't have it?

I guess I'm just not seeing how to affix much blame on the coach for Rondo not having improved even more than he has... 

Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 05:14:42 PM »

Offline Bahku

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I don't want to sound like a Doc apologist, but....

I'm not sure it's fair to complain about how Doc has handled Rondo given that we've pretty well established that all but the most elite PGs show a lot of inconsistency early in their careers, and how much Rondo has improved in a short period of time.  Rondo is a much, MUCH better player than the guy who first set foot on the court for us two years ago; shouldn't the coaching staff get some credit for that? 

If you look at his minutes played each game as a proxy for whether Doc's been jerking him around...   it's not as bad as a lot of other young players.  There really wasn't a HUGE amount of game-by-game variance (certainly not like what BBD and Powe have to deal with), and I will grant that some of that is due to the limitations of the other PGs on the roster.  Some of it may be chicken-and-egg; Rondo only plays 22 minutes but goes 0-7?  Should he have played 30 minutes, or was Doc right to pull him out when he just didn't have it?

I guess I'm just not seeing how to affix much blame on the coach for Rondo not having improved even more than he has... 

It's amazing to me that any time anyone even mentions anything negative about Doc, there's a legion of defenders there ready to take up the cause ... and yet we can devote two or three threads to criticizing Rondo ... it really gets to me at times.

Here's the thing: Rondo is ultimately responsible for how Rondo plays ... as every player is, but to think that Doc has NO responsibility is absurd. We pick apart almost every player on this blog, and it's just normal business, but just mention the coaching staff and look out!

I don't buy it ... not one bit. This is a team deal, from the top down, and Doc is a huge part of that team. There are people here who are quick to make him the hero of any game we win, and yet defend him to the death if we're not doing well. Double-standard, folks, and it's not right.

The fact is Doc IS responsible for the players, and has a great deal to do with how Rondo performs each night, by way of the time he spends on the floor, the rotation, the supporting players he puts in, the advice he gives, the plays he calls, and so on. This is an orchestra of sorts, and Doc is the conductor.

When an orchestra sounds lousy, the conductor is as much to blame as the musicians, (if the musicians are capable of course), and when a team has problems, the coach is as much to blame as anyone, if not more so. Let's stop bailing Doc out every time there's trouble, and include him as much as the players when we analyze this team's problems.

Doc is Rage's primary mentor right now, and primary guide and instructor, and when Rondo is having trouble, it's very possible that Doc could have something to do with it ... it's a reasonable assumption, although it's not always the case. I'm beginning to get a bit gun-shy that every time I type Doc's name I'm going to get some kind of "Doc's off-limits" response.

Bottom line: Doc's the coach, and as such, is responsible for this team and it's players, and just as open to criticism and analysis as anyone else in this organization. How can you analyze anyone on a team objectively without analyzing the environment and constraints placed on them by the coaching staff? It's noble to defend Doc when he's being bashed for the sake of bashing, but we should be able to criticize him as we do any player on the team, and do so constructively, without reproach.
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Re: Rondo might turn out be at best a leandro barbosa type
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 05:40:43 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Don't lump me in with everybody else, I don't post enough for you to make generalizations about me.

Let me just ask a question, phrased somewhat differently.  Play a game of pretend.

Let's pretend Rondo was drafted by the Spurs in place of Tony Parker.  Let's imagine how much he would have developed under Popovich for two years, versus under Doc.  No question - NONE - about who's the better coach, in all respects. 

How much did Tony Parker improve in his first two years under Popovich?  How much has Rondo improved under his first two years under Doc?  Somewhat analagous circumstances, at least in year two; veteran team, championship caliber, dominant big man.  Parker scores more, but he's shooting more, playing more minutes, turning the ball over a little bit more often.

Overall, though, I would say that the aggregate improvement in Tony Parker's game from the day he was drafted until the end of his second year is pretty much the same as the aggregate improvement in Rondo's game from the day he was drafted until today.  Both have gotten a lot better - both still have a lot of room for improvement.

So, based on my estimation that Parker's game grew by just about the same amount as Rondo's game...  where's the evidence that Doc's somehow held Rondo back?  If Rondo came into the league playing for Pops (assuming Parker wasn't there), how much better a player would he be today?

You can Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. and moan about Doc for a lot of things; hell, I do.  Rondo's improvement?  That's a checkmark on the good side of the ledger, in my estimation.