Author Topic: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)  (Read 24749 times)

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Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2008, 02:23:23 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Joe Johnson could hurt Tony in the post for sure. Howeverm I'd use Tony on him tryign to deny him the ball, which he has the speed to do. I'd have Tony pick him up full court, try to amke the Hawks go elsewhere. The problem with Joe is that he can hurt you off the dribble with the ball scoring or passing. Trying to keep the ball out of his hands would be a start. Tony could be effective at that. 

Re: Tony Allen better be playing in game 5
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2008, 02:26:16 PM »

Offline WillyBeamin

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Tony's like 6-4 210. Joe Johnson is 6-7 240 with a superb post game. If Joe plays smart he can beat Tony Allen with ease. Tony isn't some be all and end all defensive option on Joe Johnson.

Tony Allen at one point or another this year has matched up and done a respectable to solid job on Kobe, Lebron, and tracy mcgrady to name a few. He can guard Joe Johnson. I'm not saying he is a singular answer, you still need team defense, but to suggest tony allen can't guard JJ is just wrong.
Take it to the hole, there's a dance involved

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2008, 02:27:49 PM »

Offline BASSTHUMPER

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tony's d was a big reason we won many of those games and his off too..he hit 3pt...get to the basket..he did alot

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2008, 02:40:26 PM »

Offline Badfish35

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James Posey should be defending Joe Johnson.  At 6'4" Tony Allen isn't long enough to defend him.  I would give him a shot I guess he can't be any worse than Ray Allen but I think Johnson should be Posey's #1 priority for games 5 and 6...

Plus Tony Allen is a turnover machine. 

Re: Tony Allen better be playing in game 5
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2008, 02:40:55 PM »

Online Who

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Tony's like 6-4 210. Joe Johnson is 6-7 240 with a superb post game. If Joe plays smart he can beat Tony Allen with ease. Tony isn't some be all and end all defensive option on Joe Johnson.

Tony Allen at one point or another this year has matched up and done a respectable to solid job on Kobe, Lebron, and tracy mcgrady to name a few. He can guard Joe Johnson. I'm not saying he is a singular answer, you still need team defense, but to suggest tony allen can't guard JJ is just wrong.
I didn't say he couldn't guard him. I said he can be beat. I'll add to my initial comment, I'm not convinced he's the best man for the job. I don't think there's any best man. He could do some things, Pierce could do some things, Posey could do some things, Ray could do some things. Don't slam Ray's D on JJ, he's kept a lid on Joe Johnson all season except for one quarter. All four of those guys bring defensive credentials to the table, I don't think it's an open an shut case that Tony is the man for the job. That was my point.

LeBron doesn't have a post game. He's big but he doesn't have one. Tracy didn't use his. Kobe does. I don't remember how that went. I remember Tony playing well. Joe Johnson is much bigger than Kobe and has a better post game than Kobe, I remember JJ and Kobe going head to head in the post during the regular season and Joe won fairly easily.

The biggest reason I want Tony in there is for his penetration.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2008, 02:41:48 PM »

Offline D Dub

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Tony does deserve more run, but I too would like to see Joe Johnson covered by Posey late in the game.  He is our best one-on-one defender.


On a sidenote - I am afraid this is the wrong series for Cassell, he doesn't match up well with the Hawks youth and athletism.  Its hard to tell if he still doesn't know the sets or if he is just quick to shoot, but it ain't pretty on either end.  I would like to see House get the backup pg minutes exclusively.  

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2008, 05:09:44 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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I was proud to give Idaho Green his first TP because I essentially agreed with what he said.

People on this board who know me at all know that I've been concerned about Doc's ability to whiddle a 13 man regular season rotation into an 8 or 9 man playoff rotation. I'm not the only one who thought that obviously, but it was a problem we hoped he could solve. He hasn't and I don't know if he can.

The fact is we do have 13 legit NBA players. We have 6, maybe 7, players who are a notch above the rest, and 7 or 6 role players, depending on your feelings about Cassell. We need to play those 6-7 guys (KG, Pierce, Ray, Rondo, Perk and Posey, maybe Cassell) and fill in our remaining minutes with what we need.

One problem is, for all the "ubuntu" talk, I don't see our guys embracing the status of role player. I'm talking specifically about House and Cassell who are apparently sulking. Those guys know or should know their limitations and should be happy to take the minutes they're given and do the most with them. More importantly, Doc should have prepared everybody for this. Every one of those 7 role players should get minutes in the playoffs, but every one of them should also know that they may not play in a given game or even series. 

Given our matchup against Atlanta, a team that plays one post presence (Horford, with occasional sub from Zaza), 2-3 tall athletic guys who essentially stay on the perimeter and crash the boards from outside (Smith, Williams, Childress), a tall shooter (Johnson) and one point guard (Bibby, sometimes Law), you have to play the guys who fit. Whether we're in a half court game or a running game, we need the guys who give us the best chance to beat our opponents. That's Posey and Allen, but NOT House, Powe and Davis.

I like Leon Powe and to a lesser extent Glen Davis. But they do not fit this series. Neither is agile or athletic enough to stick with guys like Smith and Childress and Williams, and both are far too small to handle a bigger athlete like Horford. Those two guys cannot defend any of the Hawks' players and cannot keep them off the boards. There's no reason they were on the court for 29 minutes of Game 4. None.

For me, the first warning sign with Doc came when I saw Big Baby on the floor in Game 3 - he simply does not fit this series and essentially does not know what he is doing. He has regressed this season, plain and simple. Powe and Davis might be usable in series where we're playing more of a half court game. When they go up against older, lumbering presences, they are effective. However, when their opponent matches their effort level (which often happens with younger teams like the Hawks), they are just outmatched. The Hawks play one post guy on the court at any given time. As long as either Perk or KG is in the game, they're covered. Davis should not be playing in this series and Powe should not be playing nearly as much as he is.

Posey should clearly be playing 32-35 minutes a night, acting as the primary defender on Johnson or Smith. The type of player the Hawks put on the court - long athletic tweeners who stay on the perimeter and go inside for offensive boards - are exactly the types of players Posey can neutralize. Maybe he'd be better on Smith than on Johnson, but in either case, he's a better option than what we have and should be playing huge minutes in a series like this. Is there any question he's our best bench player? Is there any question he is perfect against the types of players the Hawks have? Can anybody explain to me why he played only 18 minutes and Powe played 22? 

That's also why I think TA would fit better than Powe as the 8th man. TA is an active defender and can give you a few minutes pestering Joe Johnson. He has a role that can be useful in this series. The roles played by Powe, Davis and House are simply not as useful against the Hawks. All would be more valuable than TA against Cleveland, but this is a series where he'd be perfect.

Rajon Rondo should be playing 40 minutes. He's young and has the energy and can give the defensive energy no other point guard on our roster can bring. This series, going against Bibby, is where he's most important. Against a Cleveland or Orlando, he might only need 32-35 minutes, but against this squad we need him out there. And when he's out, just put Cassell in. Cassell has played against Bibby for years in the Pacific. He can handle those 8 minutes. But we have to have one of those two guys on the court because...

Ray Allen cannot be wasting his energy bringing the ball up the court (as he did the first six minutes of the 4th quarter last night, the stretch in which we lost the game) and defending Joe Johnson. It's just ridiculous. He should be playing 36-40 minutes a night exclusively as a 2, making Joe Johnson work on the defensive end, and picking up a guy like Childress or Williams defensively. Those guys don't create offense and aren't very good shooters, Allen just needs to try to keep them off the offensive glass when he's in there and prevent them from making quick cuts for easy buckets. Then he can have the energy to make Johnson chase him, hit his shots, and take it to the glass every once in a while to keep the Hawks defense honest. Offensively, Allen was our most effective player last night (with the possible exception of Rondo). Defensively, he was a liability. Why? Because he can't cover Joe Johnson. That's not his fault because that's not what we brought him here to do. That's what we brought Posey here to do, and that's what we kept TA for.

Paul Pierce is out of sorts. Ideally, he should be the guy hounding Joe Johnson (leaving Posey for Smith and Horford for KG). But something's not right with him. We still need his minutes, but if he needed rest in Game 3, we should have given it to him and opened up more time for Posey and TA.

Honestly for the most part, I'd be playing a 7 man rotation. Rondo gets 40 minutes a night, and Cassell takes the other 8 minutes. Rondo/Cassell sticks with Bibby/Law. Allen, Pierce, KG and Perk start. Pierce sticks with Johnson at the beginning. If he can't take it, bring Posey in a little quicker. Keep Posey on Johnson pretty much all night. If Posey really needs a breather, or we want to rest his legs for a few minutes, let TA get a few minutes on Johnson. Then keep a rotation of Pierce, KG, Ray and Perk around them. That's it. It's not rocket science. 8 men. That's all you need. Powe maybe gets a handful of minutes when matchups allow. Other than that, you don't need him. It's not an insult to these guys, it's about winning everybody a championship.

We lost that game because of the first 6 minutes of the 4th quarter. We shut them down to close out the 3rd and took a 10 point lead. Then we inexplicably put House in there which screwed us in two positions :

1. House can't defend, handle the ball or create shot opportunities for anybody plus he takes a few minutes to heat up. Why would you put him in completely cold when you're protecting a ten point lead in a playoff game on the road? Our point guard position was essentially empty for that stretch.

2. Ray Allen, a 34 year old who had played 30 of 36 minutes already, now had to add bringing the ball up the court AND defending our opponent's best player to his task list which at the time was wearing down Joe Johnson on the other end of the court and providing our offensive spark.

Because of House's substantial limitations, suddenly our 2-guard position was weakened too. That doesn't even get to the fact that House can't guard Mike Bibby leaving more of a burden on our other players, allowing Atlanta to do what they do best - crash the offensive boards for garbage buckets. In those six minutes, the Hawks outrebounded us 8 to 2, with two offensive boards leading to extra buckets. They gained the momentum and there was no question they'd win the game after that stretch in which they cut the lead from 10 to 1 and got the crowd into the game again.

We won this year on defense, how we ended up letting Eddie House and Ray Allen, arguably our two worst perimeter defenders, defend the Hawks' only two playmakers/shot creaters in the crucial stretch of the game is beyond me.

In all, there are (or should be) series in which Powe, Davis and House will be necessary and TA will be completely unnecessary - this is not that series. I still think we take this series in six. Unfortunately, my hopes for a title are taking a serious hit and my confidence in Doc's ability has reached an all-time low.
Go Celtics.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2008, 05:38:42 PM »

Offline AHHH GiVE mE a bReaK

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Leon Powe for the most part last night was an embarrassment. Why is this guy playing so many minutes? I understand KG and PP where in foul trouble for most of the night, but that does not mean you have to go your third best big man off the bench.

Why does Doc Rivers feel like he has to play his whole bench. I'm surprised he didn't call up Gabe Pruitt and throw him in. Sam Cassell should probably retire after this year. He is way to slow and no longer has that great touch that he used to have.

PJ Brown, James Posey, Tony Allen, should have the first looks off the bench. Big Baby and Cassell should be used sparingly. Powe should not see more than 5 minutes on the court if the Celtics want to win this series.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2008, 05:55:43 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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How about Powe should be playing because he has been an absolute beast most of this season. He has been a dominant force on the boards and also with a needed low post presence. It was a couple tough games people! It is so transparent. People just want whomever is in there during a loss to sit, and whomever is in there for a win to stay. Sometimes these guys have bad games.

Sam should sit. He can't do a thing vs this team with his old legs, poor shooting, and bad defense.

House should get enough minutes to show he is a better option. What do you expect when the guy hasn't hardly played in two weeks?! It's obvious none of you guys are streak shooters.

Perk should be in there the majority of the game. He brings so much more than his stats show. Especially rebounding and defensively.

Ray should be getting half again as many shots as he is getting right now. He is often the last one to get a touch out there. He was on fire and should have been countering JJ's shots.


Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2008, 06:35:02 PM »

Offline liam

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If it's going to be this physical then PJ Brown needs to play. The bench needs to play heavy minutes in the 1st half.  We need to play smarter and calm down. Go Celtics.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2008, 07:18:56 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan06

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I do think PJ needs more minutes...and I can't believe I'm saying this but so does Tony Allen.  Joe Johnson doesn't pump fake and TA could stay in front of him, I would hope he doesn't really try to do much offensively, even though he can go to the hoop I could forsee Josh Smith pitching his shots into the 3rd row.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2008, 07:26:14 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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How about Powe should be playing because he has been an absolute beast most of this season. He has been a dominant force on the boards and also with a needed low post presence. It was a couple tough games people! It is so transparent. People just want whomever is in there during a loss to sit, and whomever is in there for a win to stay. Sometimes these guys have bad games.

Sam should sit. He can't do a thing vs this team with his old legs, poor shooting, and bad defense.

House should get enough minutes to show he is a better option. What do you expect when the guy hasn't hardly played in two weeks?! It's obvious none of you guys are streak shooters.

Perk should be in there the majority of the game. He brings so much more than his stats show. Especially rebounding and defensively.

Ray should be getting half again as many shots as he is getting right now. He is often the last one to get a touch out there. He was on fire and should have been countering JJ's shots.


I agree with everything you said here except for one thing. But first the stuff I did agree with. Powe deserves the run and has earned it, but I'm not so sure the athletes that the Hawks have are players he matches up very well with. Still, play our game and that means Powe. He just needs to become the enforcer that he can be in the playoffs and not the sacrifice your body, offensive foul creator that he was during the regular season. Playoff basketball is a different game and Powe maybe most of all the Celtics players needs to adjust his defensive mentality and start roughing it up.

Right on about Perk. He is no longer the 3 fouls in 3 minutes guy he was a year or two ago. You need his defensive presence. You couldn't be more right about Perk and I haven't understood as the season progressed and Perk developed more and showed he could stay on the court and be productive why his minutes weren't expanded.

Again right with Ray. If you're leaving Ray in to be torched by Johnson because you need his offense, then use his offense and call his plays. Maybe making Johnson work on the defensive end will tire him out and cause a miss or too.

Now the part I don't agree with and honestly there's nothing that can be said that can change my mind. It is House's career to come off the bench and be prepared and productive. It is his career!! I don't care if he's a streak shooter or a guy that can always hit a consistent 15 footer but not the 20 footer. I don't care. When his name is called he gets paid big money to be prepared to make shots. And I don't care if he say for two weeks. It is his career to be ready.

Now, I never played organized ball, basketball was always something fun for me, so obviously I am not a streak shooter. I did play Division III football and was a walk on on the baseball team. And I was expected to be ready no matter what. Someone injured, in you go. I need a nickel or dime back, in you go. I need a righty at bat instead of this lefty, in you go. And that was that, produce. Period.

Hence my opinion. If it is expected of an amateur athlete, it's a no brainer that a pro needs to be at the top of his game at a moments notice.

Lastly, and I really am not trying to be rude but the comment struck me funny. Are you implying that you know of what you speak about House because you are an NBA caliber streak shooter? I don't see where having to be a streak shooter of any quality minimizes one's opinion as to whether one believes that House should produce right away when called on. Even if it is after not playing regularly for two weeks.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2008, 08:01:37 PM »

Offline kenmaine

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TP to paintitgreen. I agree, more or less, with all your points.
 
My 2 cents-

Why does Ray Allen get so many minutes? He's a magnificent player, but wouldn't 36,38 be about right?
Why can't Rondo go 48 minutes if necessary? He's only 22 yrs. old Doc!
Please give Sam a nice warm seat at the end of the bench. The team did just fine with House all year(that said, I'd still want Rondo at pg for all 48).
Play Perkins more minutes.
I love Big Baby, but he seems lost, so I don't fault Doc for going with Leon. PJ is old- give him five minutes a game maybe.


Off topic- Does a player have to be seriously injured before the NBA moves the [dang] cameramen back 10 or 15 feet from the baseline?

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2008, 08:31:10 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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How about Powe should be playing because he has been an absolute beast most of this season. He has been a dominant force on the boards and also with a needed low post presence. It was a couple tough games people! It is so transparent. People just want whomever is in there during a loss to sit, and whomever is in there for a win to stay. Sometimes these guys have bad games.

Sam should sit. He can't do a thing vs this team with his old legs, poor shooting, and bad defense.

House should get enough minutes to show he is a better option. What do you expect when the guy hasn't hardly played in two weeks?! It's obvious none of you guys are streak shooters.

Perk should be in there the majority of the game. He brings so much more than his stats show. Especially rebounding and defensively.

Ray should be getting half again as many shots as he is getting right now. He is often the last one to get a touch out there. He was on fire and should have been countering JJ's shots.


I agree with everything you said here except for one thing. But first the stuff I did agree with. Powe deserves the run and has earned it, but I'm not so sure the athletes that the Hawks have are players he matches up very well with. Still, play our game and that means Powe. He just needs to become the enforcer that he can be in the playoffs and not the sacrifice your body, offensive foul creator that he was during the regular season. Playoff basketball is a different game and Powe maybe most of all the Celtics players needs to adjust his defensive mentality and start roughing it up.

Right on about Perk. He is no longer the 3 fouls in 3 minutes guy he was a year or two ago. You need his defensive presence. You couldn't be more right about Perk and I haven't understood as the season progressed and Perk developed more and showed he could stay on the court and be productive why his minutes weren't expanded.

Again right with Ray. If you're leaving Ray in to be torched by Johnson because you need his offense, then use his offense and call his plays. Maybe making Johnson work on the defensive end will tire him out and cause a miss or too.

Now the part I don't agree with and honestly there's nothing that can be said that can change my mind. It is House's career to come off the bench and be prepared and productive. It is his career!! I don't care if he's a streak shooter or a guy that can always hit a consistent 15 footer but not the 20 footer. I don't care. When his name is called he gets paid big money to be prepared to make shots. And I don't care if he say for two weeks. It is his career to be ready.

Now, I never played organized ball, basketball was always something fun for me, so obviously I am not a streak shooter. I did play Division III football and was a walk on on the baseball team. And I was expected to be ready no matter what. Someone injured, in you go. I need a nickel or dime back, in you go. I need a righty at bat instead of this lefty, in you go. And that was that, produce. Period.

Hence my opinion. If it is expected of an amateur athlete, it's a no brainer that a pro needs to be at the top of his game at a moments notice.

Lastly, and I really am not trying to be rude but the comment struck me funny. Are you implying that you know of what you speak about House because you are an NBA caliber streak shooter? I don't see where having to be a streak shooter of any quality minimizes one's opinion as to whether one believes that House should produce right away when called on. Even if it is after not playing regularly for two weeks.

I am obviously not an NBA caliber streak shooter or I wouldn't be posting on this blog! I am however a streak shooter and have always been. I can guarantee you one thing though. Streak shooters mainly are shooting from confidence. Sure he has to have a fundamentally good shot, which House does, but he has to feel like every shot he puts up goes in. Often it takes 2-3 shots missing before you get into that one that feels just right and then watch out. If he isn't getting the run in a game situation then he doesn't get the ability to find that sweet spot where he is on fire. Being expected to come in and just hit your first shot or two doesn't usually happen. A set shooter like Posey has a much easier time hitting right off the bat because he is just following a memorized routine. Sitting there on that bench for 45 minutes not taking a shot makes it tough for House to come out and hit. Especially when House's first thought when he comes in the game is to pass the ball and play hard defense. He was in there 7 minutes and only took two shots. The first a good shot in the flow of the offense that he missed poorly. The second a rushed shot clock beater that he just threw up off balance that really didn't have a chance to go in. Sam however gets 4-5 shots off prior to the 3 minute mark hitting. Of course he can then hit a few because he has forced himself into a rhythm at the expense of the team. The problem is that Sam is a streak shooter as well. Unfortunately he worries about that at the expense of the rest of his game.

Re: Who should play more, who less? / Tony Allen better be (merged)
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2008, 08:53:49 PM »

Offline Oldschoolkid

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Okay People, lets get this word to Doc (before he becomes DOG Rivers) Now I really don't remember who was covering who in gane 1 & 2, because it didn't seem to matter, it just worked! But like you all, I say Tony Allen is our best bet on Joe J....also, Tony would have been the ONLY guy slashing in the last 2 quarters of the last game because.....THAT IS WHAT HE DOES!!! No one else was, they were just staying outside...of course the refs let them hack everyone, BUT~~~ THIS IS THE PLAYOFFS, look what
WAShington got away with......! Okay, you say Pachula, I say PJ BROWN, that is right, you want to bring it, PJ will bring it on your scrub A$$......deal! Next time, PJ in the 3rd quarter, give that Pachula punk some old school, REALDEAL, come after our boy KG, DOC, did you let him get away with that #@$%%$$#%%, WE are the CELTICS, NO LAYUPS, NO IN THE PAINT POINTS, remember Greg Kite in the LA days, ENFORCER, okay PJ BROWN = ENFORCER, you have to bring the MUSCLE ....DOC!!!!!! GET REAL...DO NOT LET THIS CRAP HAPPEN TO US!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, and Leon, please get back to rebounding...you to Perk!!!