Would Tatum Make The All-Time Celtics Starting Five?

[slamtheking]

There are different ways of looking at this -- the best five overall? the best one at each of the five positions? etc. -- but I'll just go with the five guys I'd want on the court:

Russell
Bird
McHale
Havlicek
DJ

Russell and Bird seem obvious and, IMO, don't require an explanation.

McHale was a very good defender and had perhaps the greatest and most varied stable of post moves in NBA history.

Havlicek is the greatest scorer in Celtics history.

DJ, I imagine, would get the most opposition for inclusion on this list, which is understandable because he was never a star, but he was a solid point guard who had championship experience before he even got to Boston, helped them win more titles, had a superhuman on-court connection with Bird, and was, according to either Magic or Michael Cooper (can't remember which), the toughest defender Magic/Cooper ever faced, which I think is high praise.

McHale's value goes down if we're playing 2026 basketball, though, which always adds a wrinkle to these sorts of all-timer lists if you're fortunate enough to be spoilt for choice at most spots.

how so?  Mchale would dominate in the paint, particularly in a league with far less quality bigs to defend him.  Add in the fact that he became a really good outside shot as his career progressed he'd have done well playing now. 

[Vermont Green]

There are different ways of looking at this -- the best five overall? the best one at each of the five positions? etc. -- but I'll just go with the five guys I'd want on the court:

Russell
Bird
McHale
Havlicek
DJ

Russell and Bird seem obvious and, IMO, don't require an explanation.

McHale was a very good defender and had perhaps the greatest and most varied stable of post moves in NBA history.

Havlicek is the greatest scorer in Celtics history.

DJ, I imagine, would get the most opposition for inclusion on this list, which is understandable because he was never a star, but he was a solid point guard who had championship experience before he even got to Boston, helped them win more titles, had a superhuman on-court connection with Bird, and was, according to either Magic or Michael Cooper (can't remember which), the toughest defender Magic/Cooper ever faced, which I think is high praise.

McHale's value goes down if we're playing 2026 basketball, though, which always adds a wrinkle to these sorts of all-timer lists if you're fortunate enough to be spoilt for choice at most spots.

Compared to who?  Garnett?  Heinsohn?  Cowens?

I agree that it is hard because if you are comparing the individual players to others of their era, then Cousy has to be on any list.  If you are taking a player from an earlier era and trying to say who would be best for the current era, it is a near impossible to do that in any consistent way (everyone will have a different opinion).  But if you stick to the eras, you can say player X was an all star ## of times while player Y only # times, use that kind of thing to support a ranking.  You also get in to the question of if it includes accomplishments on other teams or just in Boston, for example when trying to compare Garnett to McHale.

Dennis Johnson seems to be coming up a lot.  He was at best, the 4th best player on his Celtic's teams.  If DJ is on the list but McHale and Parish not, I don't get it.   You could make the argument that he would be a better fit with the other players on this hypothetical Green Dream Team, if this team played in the modern era, but I don't see it.  If you go combo guard, you could slot Hondo in that spot.  if you go pure PG, it has to be Cousy.

[jambr380]

Tatum probably edges out Pierce imo (or will very soon). 4X 1st Team All-NBA en route to a 5th this year.

So I would have Cousy, Havlicek, Tatum, Bird, Russell

Bird or Tatum are fine at PF since they are both big wings. Bird actually won 2 MVPs and 2 Titles starting at PF before trading for Walton and McHale moving into the starting lineup.

KG and McHale also obviously deserve a mention, but McHale was never the #1 like Tatum was and KG just didn?t play here long enough or in his total prime. He is definitely better than Tatum overall

[Csfan1984]

He should pass KG and Mchale at PF. Currently he his behind both still.

 I think he just needs three more good regular seasons with 50+ wins along two good playoff runs. Or another championship for the Cs where he is at least the third best player on the club.

I got KG ahead because KG was just so right in fixing the culture and amazing pre-knee.
I got McHale ahead because he was often considered a true Celtic from six man to starting role he always gave you everything (including KG).

At SF Tatum would need one more championship or a league MVP to pass Pierce.
To pass Bird at SF he would need three total chips and one league MVP. 

[Who]

KG and McHale is a tough one to deliberate.

KG had that one phenomenal season which can put him alongside the pantheon of the GOAT Celtics. However, then he got hurt. He still played at a very good level. But more All-Star level than MVP candidate level. His overall stats aren't as impressive but his impact was much larger than his basic numbers suggest. Overall, only 6 years and only 400 games.

McHale is another strange candidate to consider. Great peak at the middle of his career but it was so short lived due to injuries. Similar duration of his peak to KG even. Never reached MVP level. Took care of his own tasks at an extremely high level but did not do much to make his teammates better. Not the force multiplier that KG was because of KG's team defense & passing.

McHale did reach All-NBA 1st Team and was a perennial All-Star for 8-10 years. Would have had another couple of ASG appearances if he hadn't been kept in that 6th man role for so long.

I was surprised to see McHale only had the same number of starts at KG had. 400 starts for McHale to 396 for KG. McHale should probably have more like 600-700 starts but they kept him on the bench so long early in his career for team balance and then sacrificed his starting spot late in his career again for team balance.

[Who]

Stats for McHale & Garnett

I'll go with a 10 year peak for McHale. Exclude his rookie year and final two seasons when his minutes and production were low. 762 games 33.4mpg 19.7ppg 8.0rpg 1.9bpg 0.4spg and 1.9apg vs 2.1 turnovers per game. 56.4% FG 80% FT on 5.0 FTA against 13.6 FGA (strong FT rate 38.9%). 61.6% TS which was a 114 TS+ rating relative to his era. Elite scoring efficiency.

KG had a 6 year run. 396 games. Hmm, almost half of McHale's 762 games in his 10 year prime. 31mpg 15.7ppg 8.3rpg 1.2spg 1.0bpg with 2.7apg against 1.7 turnovers per game. 52% FG 82.7% FT on 3.3 FTA against 12.5 FGA (lowish for a big at 26.2% FT rate). KG had a 56.4% TS which gives him a 105 TS+ relative to his era. So above average scoring efficiency but not high level.

McHale's era played at a faster pace. So the difference in rebounding numbers is larger on a per possession or percentage basis. Percentage wise McHale had 13.4% rebounding rate compared to 16.2% for KG. Big difference. Interesting how different they are as rebounders. KG was a dominant defensive rebounder and subpar offensive rebounder. McHale was a strong offensive rebounder but subpar defensive rebounder. Even when Bird missed the 1989 season, McHale's rebounding numbers did not improve. So I don't think it was teammates taking his boards.

Also interesting how close their overall stocks are. McHale with more blocks at 1.9bpg to 1.2bpg for KG. But KG with 1.0spg to 0.4 for McHale. Overall, 2.3 stocks for McHale to 2.2 stocks for KG.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

There are different ways of looking at this -- the best five overall? the best one at each of the five positions? etc. -- but I'll just go with the five guys I'd want on the court:

Russell
Bird
McHale
Havlicek
DJ

Russell and Bird seem obvious and, IMO, don't require an explanation.

McHale was a very good defender and had perhaps the greatest and most varied stable of post moves in NBA history.

Havlicek is the greatest scorer in Celtics history.

DJ, I imagine, would get the most opposition for inclusion on this list, which is understandable because he was never a star, but he was a solid point guard who had championship experience before he even got to Boston, helped them win more titles, had a superhuman on-court connection with Bird, and was, according to either Magic or Michael Cooper (can't remember which), the toughest defender Magic/Cooper ever faced, which I think is high praise.

McHale's value goes down if we're playing 2026 basketball, though, which always adds a wrinkle to these sorts of all-timer lists if you're fortunate enough to be spoilt for choice at most spots.

Maybe, but maybe also Tatum's value goes down if they're playing 1986 basketball, because he doesn't have anywhere near the post game that McHale had.

[slamtheking]

He should pass KG and Mchale at PF. Currently he his behind both still.

 I think he just needs three more good regular seasons with 50+ wins along two good playoff runs. Or another championship for the Cs where he is at least the third best player on the club.

I got KG ahead because KG was just so right in fixing the culture and amazing pre-knee.
I got McHale ahead because he was often considered a true Celtic from six man to starting role he always gave you everything (including KG).

At SF Tatum would need one more championship or a league MVP to pass Pierce.
To pass Bird at SF he would need three total chips and one league MVP.

he wouldn't pass Bird ever.  one of the top 5 players ever.  #3 in my personal opinion behind only the greatest team player ever in Russell and the greatest individual player ever in Wilt.

3 titles and an MVP would still leave him short 2 MVPs behind Bird who won 3 in a row.  tatum would also have to win 2 finals MVPs just to catch up to Larry.  He'd also be short another finals appearance behind Larry. 

[byennie]

You can't put him in the same category as a Bird, Havlicek or Russell -- those are easy.

Garnett depends on how much of a Celtic you think he is. For his career, he's above Tatum for sure. That's a perennial MVP candidate, top 3-5 All-Time at this position.

McHale is a tough one. I think absolute peak/prime McHale was the bigger force, but it was very brief by comparison. Tatum will beat him on every career number. I think it's ok to put Tatum over him, even if there's a context where you'd pick McHale first for your team.

I'd give him a SLIGHT edge over Pierce, assuming he has another ~3-5 productive years in green. Better peak, 1st team All-NBA level performance. Will still be difficult to catch Pierce on career scoring. Pierce is right there with him in than 2nd tier of career Celts.

Cousy, I think you get into too much of a modern era vs old timey debate to get anywhere useful. Historically, Cousy is probably a bigger deal. Whether you're willing to rank him over modern superstars is up to you.

All told, it seems like the absolute best case scenario for Tatum is around 4th/5th best career Celtic if everything breaks right over the next few years. The floor is several steps lower, below guys like Pierce, McHale, Cousy. Mayyybe below Cowens if things went right off the rails from here?

[Roy H.]

He should pass KG and Mchale at PF. Currently he his behind both still.

 I think he just needs three more good regular seasons with 50+ wins along two good playoff runs. Or another championship for the Cs where he is at least the third best player on the club.

I got KG ahead because KG was just so right in fixing the culture and amazing pre-knee.
I got McHale ahead because he was often considered a true Celtic from six man to starting role he always gave you everything (including KG).

At SF Tatum would need one more championship or a league MVP to pass Pierce.
To pass Bird at SF he would need three total chips and one league MVP.

he wouldn't pass Bird ever.  one of the top 5 players ever.  #3 in my personal opinion behind only the greatest team player ever in Russell and the greatest individual player ever in Wilt.

3 titles and an MVP would still leave him short 2 MVPs behind Bird who won 3 in a row.  tatum would also have to win 2 finals MVPs just to catch up to Larry.  He'd also be short another finals appearance behind Larry.

I agree.  In terms of resume, there are four spots that nobody is realistically touching:  Russell, Bird, Hondo and Cousy. 

McHale is the only debatable guy, but he hung three banners.  Tatum could edge him out due to longevity, but in my mind Tatum won't be a top-five Celtic unless he wins another title (which I don't think he will).

[Donoghus]

The funny thing is that Pierce got knocked around quite on bit on this blog and in the media while playing and now that time has passed has gained a much better appreciation from fans.  I think the same thing will happen with Tatum.  15-20 years from now, the Celtics will have another star that will inevitably be compared to Tatum and we'll see it the same way some are seeing Pierce against Tatum now.

[Vermont Green]

McHale's value goes down if we're playing 2026 basketball, though, which always adds a wrinkle to these sorts of all-timer lists if you're fortunate enough to be spoilt for choice at most spots.

Maybe, but maybe also Tatum's value goes down if they're playing 1986 basketball, because he doesn't have anywhere near the post game that McHale had.

Tatum could not even play PF in 1986.  He would be a prototypical SF though, and would be one of the best in the game at that time, just like now.  I don't consider Tatum a PF in any case.  He is a forward, yes, just not a true power forward.  When he is on the floor as the second big, it is more that the team is playing without a PF.  Kind of like when a football team plays with 3 WR or 2 TE.  The players are still WR or TE, that does not change, the only thing that changes is the number of them on the field.

In 1986, teams could not get away with playing without (2) legitimate bigs on the floor, usually as true C and a true PF.  Some teams played with (2) C or (2) PF, but there were always (2) bigs.  That is not the case today.  A team can play with (1) C and (4) guards, you don't even necessarily have (2) forwards.  There are very few true PF these days and not that many true PGs either.  Combo guards rule. I guess you could classify Tatum as a combo forward in a similar manner as a combo guard, but Tatum is not a big and not a PF now and certainly could not have been one in 1986.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

For those ranking Tatum ahead of McHale, keep in mind that Tatum has been Option 1/1a for most of his career, while McHale was never higher than Option 2 and played next to a great scorer in Bird, so Tatum's scoring numbers are going to be higher.

[byennie]

For those ranking Tatum ahead of McHale, keep in mind that Tatum has been Option 1/1a for most of his career, while McHale was never higher than Option 2 and played next to a great scorer in Bird, so Tatum's scoring numbers are going to be higher.

I think there's enough apples-to-oranges with those two that it's pretty hard to gauge. Personally, I think prime McHale with a green light was a bigger force. He could absolutely dominate and did play in the shadow of Bird + injuries. A lot of "what if" there.

That said, Tatum's career numbers will blow McHale away, and it's not like we actually got to test McHale that much as a #1 to prove the theory.

[Who]

For those ranking Tatum ahead of McHale, keep in mind that Tatum has been Option 1/1a for most of his career, while McHale was never higher than Option 2 and played next to a great scorer in Bird, so Tatum's scoring numbers are going to be higher.

I think the 1989 season when Bird missed the season tells us a lot about McHale and his ability to up his production.

1988 = 37mpg 22.6ppg 8.4rpg 2.7apg 1.4bpg on 60.4% FG on 14.2 FGA 6.8 FTA 79.7% FT with 2.2 turnovers.

1989 = 37mpg 22.5ppg 8.2rpg 2.2apg 1.2bpg on 54.6% FG on 15.5 FGA 6.8 FTA 81.8% FT with 2.5 turnovers.

Almost identical.

McHale wasn't able to up his production without Bird around. The team's offensive rating fell from 115.4 (1st in league) to 110.8 (8th in league) without Bird. The team fell from a 57 win team to a 42 win team with McHale as the main man. He was lacking as a focal point to build your offense around him.

McHale's lack of passing ability made it difficult to run the offense through him. You can't involve the other players if your post man isn't a good (and willing!!) passer out of the post.

There is also a question that he lacked the mentality to be aggressive enough as a scorer. Some scorers, like Moses Malone, managed to be 30ppg scorers with bad passing skills. McHale - he barely upped his FGA without Bird around.

I think it was Bird who talked about McHale's mentality and said McHale would often take his foot off the gas. "Oh, he has had enough". It's over, we have them. No need to keep thumping them. That if McHale had of had a more aggressive mentality, he could have easily been a 30ppg scorer. He was unstoppable in terms of moves, shooting touch & size.