LeBron James bemoans ring culture in NBA: 'It's never enough'

[mobilija]

What's never enough? Who is saying they aren't great players?

This is a subtle shift or bait-and-switch with the actual argumentation. It's a straw man. No one said Steve Nash wasn't great. Or Allen Iverson. Or Charles Barkley. No one says Lebron James isn't great.

But when considering the pantheon of players, the tiebreaker for two relatively equal players in production will always be did you help your team win the most important games.

There's no doubt that some players have greater advantages playing with better teammates and better organizations, but a lot of that culture is impacted by the best player. Lebron's teams, for example, have historically had pretty meh culture, which leads to a lack of confidence in teammates, which leads to a worst supporting cast.

This is just Lebron trying to reframe the conversation in a way that makes him look like the GOAT.

Exactly. Yes, it is a team game, but let?s not pretend like this is baseball or football. You?re 4-6 in the Finals, LeBron.

His team was also favored only 3 times in the Finals.  Against Dallas and San Antonio in Miami and the Lakers title.  Every other year at the start of the Finals his opponent was the favored team.

So?.he was unsuccessful on paper and in games.

Or it means he dragged lesser teams further than he should have and then gets discredited when the better team actually wins.  I'm pretty sure that is the point he was making.

To be clear, he dragged ONE lesser team further. Little gain in going 4-6 instead of 3-7. Certainly not an argument for greatness.

[Moranis]

What's never enough? Who is saying they aren't great players?

This is a subtle shift or bait-and-switch with the actual argumentation. It's a straw man. No one said Steve Nash wasn't great. Or Allen Iverson. Or Charles Barkley. No one says Lebron James isn't great.

But when considering the pantheon of players, the tiebreaker for two relatively equal players in production will always be did you help your team win the most important games.

There's no doubt that some players have greater advantages playing with better teammates and better organizations, but a lot of that culture is impacted by the best player. Lebron's teams, for example, have historically had pretty meh culture, which leads to a lack of confidence in teammates, which leads to a worst supporting cast.

This is just Lebron trying to reframe the conversation in a way that makes him look like the GOAT.

Exactly. Yes, it is a team game, but let?s not pretend like this is baseball or football. You?re 4-6 in the Finals, LeBron.

His team was also favored only 3 times in the Finals.  Against Dallas and San Antonio in Miami and the Lakers title.  Every other year at the start of the Finals his opponent was the favored team.

So?.he was unsuccessful on paper and in games.

Or it means he dragged lesser teams further than he should have and then gets discredited when the better team actually wins.  I'm pretty sure that is the point he was making.

To be clear, he dragged ONE lesser team further. Little gain in going 4-6 instead of 3-7. Certainly not an argument for greatness.

the 2018 Cavs were also dragged to the Finals.  He doesn't take that team or 2007 one to the Finals he is 4-4.  Or if Jordan would have gotten there and lost and isn?t 6-0, but instead 6-2 in the Finals, I do think that changes his perception some.  The mystique is he never lost in the Finals, but he also didnt make it there 9 times and in the 6 Finals, the Bulls were always the favorite. Even that 1st one against the Lakers the Bulls were -200. The last one against the Jazz they were -115, but all the others they were big to very heavy favorites.  The 95 series they lost to the Magic the Bulls were -185 and lost in 6. 

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron is a modern day Wilt Chamberlain.  A dominant productive force in his era, that did not win a lot of titles and came up short.  4 for 6 record even with his ring stacking ways in trying to build teams to win him a ring.

[Moranis]

LeBron is a modern day Wilt Chamberlain.  A dominant productive force in his era, that did not win a lot of titles and came up short.  4 for 6 record even with his ring stacking ways in trying to build teams to win him a ring.

Lebron has won as many titles as any other great player of his era.  Him and Curry have 4, Wade has 3, and no one else has more than 2.  Now maybe you count Duncan and Kobe in his era, but they each won multiple titles before Lebron was even in the league and less than him during their career overlaps.  Giannis, Kawhi, and Jokic each only have 1 and I'm not seeing a clear path for either to get more than that. 

[mobilija]

What's never enough? Who is saying they aren't great players?

This is a subtle shift or bait-and-switch with the actual argumentation. It's a straw man. No one said Steve Nash wasn't great. Or Allen Iverson. Or Charles Barkley. No one says Lebron James isn't great.

But when considering the pantheon of players, the tiebreaker for two relatively equal players in production will always be did you help your team win the most important games.

There's no doubt that some players have greater advantages playing with better teammates and better organizations, but a lot of that culture is impacted by the best player. Lebron's teams, for example, have historically had pretty meh culture, which leads to a lack of confidence in teammates, which leads to a worst supporting cast.

This is just Lebron trying to reframe the conversation in a way that makes him look like the GOAT.

Exactly. Yes, it is a team game, but let?s not pretend like this is baseball or football. You?re 4-6 in the Finals, LeBron.

His team was also favored only 3 times in the Finals.  Against Dallas and San Antonio in Miami and the Lakers title.  Every other year at the start of the Finals his opponent was the favored team.

So?.he was unsuccessful on paper and in games.

Or it means he dragged lesser teams further than he should have and then gets discredited when the better team actually wins.  I'm pretty sure that is the point he was making.

To be clear, he dragged ONE lesser team further. Little gain in going 4-6 instead of 3-7. Certainly not an argument for greatness.

the 2018 Cavs were also dragged to the Finals.  He doesn't take that team or 2007 one to the Finals he is 4-4.  Or if Jordan would have gotten there and lost and isn?t 6-0, but instead 6-2 in the Finals, I do think that changes his perception some.  The mystique is he never lost in the Finals, but he also didnt make it there 9 times and in the 6 Finals, the Bulls were always the favorite. Even that 1st one against the Lakers the Bulls were -200. The last one against the Jazz they were -115, but all the others they were big to very heavy favorites.  The 95 series they lost to the Magic the Bulls were -185 and lost in 6.

?If? isn?t what happened.
What happened is he won one more than what people thought would happen and still didn?t break .500. I don?t think that?s a great accomplishment. He has plenty of other great things about him. Going to 10 finals is great, having a loosing record in those finals is not great. If you want to sugar coat 4-6 over the potential of going 3-7 that?s like putting sprinkles on a poop sundae. At the end of the day ur still eating poop.

[Moranis]

What's never enough? Who is saying they aren't great players?

This is a subtle shift or bait-and-switch with the actual argumentation. It's a straw man. No one said Steve Nash wasn't great. Or Allen Iverson. Or Charles Barkley. No one says Lebron James isn't great.

But when considering the pantheon of players, the tiebreaker for two relatively equal players in production will always be did you help your team win the most important games.

There's no doubt that some players have greater advantages playing with better teammates and better organizations, but a lot of that culture is impacted by the best player. Lebron's teams, for example, have historically had pretty meh culture, which leads to a lack of confidence in teammates, which leads to a worst supporting cast.

This is just Lebron trying to reframe the conversation in a way that makes him look like the GOAT.

Exactly. Yes, it is a team game, but let?s not pretend like this is baseball or football. You?re 4-6 in the Finals, LeBron.

His team was also favored only 3 times in the Finals.  Against Dallas and San Antonio in Miami and the Lakers title.  Every other year at the start of the Finals his opponent was the favored team.

So?.he was unsuccessful on paper and in games.

Or it means he dragged lesser teams further than he should have and then gets discredited when the better team actually wins.  I'm pretty sure that is the point he was making.

To be clear, he dragged ONE lesser team further. Little gain in going 4-6 instead of 3-7. Certainly not an argument for greatness.

the 2018 Cavs were also dragged to the Finals.  He doesn't take that team or 2007 one to the Finals he is 4-4.  Or if Jordan would have gotten there and lost and isn?t 6-0, but instead 6-2 in the Finals, I do think that changes his perception some.  The mystique is he never lost in the Finals, but he also didnt make it there 9 times and in the 6 Finals, the Bulls were always the favorite. Even that 1st one against the Lakers the Bulls were -200. The last one against the Jazz they were -115, but all the others they were big to very heavy favorites.  The 95 series they lost to the Magic the Bulls were -185 and lost in 6.

?If? isn?t what happened.
What happened is he won one more than what people thought would happen and still didn?t break .500. I don?t think that?s a great accomplishment. He has plenty of other great things about him. Going to 10 finals is great, having a loosing record in those finals is not great. If you want to sugar coat 4-6 over the potential of going 3-7 that?s like putting sprinkles on a poop sundae. At the end of the day ur still eating poop.

No, I'm saying basketball is a team game. You win or lose as a team and that actually matters.  If the teams you are playing are favored, have more HOFers, etc. that stuff matters, or at least it should.  If you are on the better team, you are supposed to win.  I mean Lebron's last 2 finals the 3rd leading scorer on his team in the playoffs were KCP (Lakers) and George Hill (Cavs and #2 was Love so a good but not great player).  The 2015 Finals after Kyrie got hurt in game 1, the 2nd leading scorer was JR Smith and the 3rd leading scorer was Timofey Mozgov.  The 07 team the other 4 starters were Larry Hughes, Big Z, Sasha Pavlovic, and Drew Gooden. Obviously the other 2 Warriors, he was playing a team with 2 then current top 5 players that happen to be top 15-20 players all time.  Are you really discrediting Lebron because he lost with those teammates and/or against that team (and he actually won with KCP - Davis was great obviously). 

How many playoff games did Jordan win without Scottie Pippen? The answer is 1 playoff game.  Not series, GAME.  Jordan couldn't win a literal playoff series until he was joined by a top 50 player in the history of the sport and he never won a thing without Pippen (who while not winning any championships, won multiple playoff series without Jordan). 

Do you know how many playoff series Kareem won without Oscar or Magic? 3 series.  In 1970 (with fellow HOFer Dandridge) the Bucks beat the Sixers in 5 before losing to the Knicks in 5.  The 1977 Lakers beat the Warriors in 7 before being swept by the Blazers (Cazzie Russell and Earl Tatum were 2nd and 3rd leading scorers - so not a good team).  The 1979 Lakers beat the Nuggets in 3 before losing to the Sonics in 5 (that team had Dantley, Wilkes, and Nixon among others).  That's it.  3 playoff series wins without playing with a fellow top 5 player all time in the sport or a fellow top 15ish player all time in the sport. 

To win championships you need a great team.  You shouldn't be discredited because you were so good you pulled inferior teams into the Finals to begin with.  You should be elevated for that.