Need to blow it up

[wdleehi]

I don't understand why on earth you would trade Brown, White, PP if you thought that JT would at least be close to 90% for the 26/27 season.   If the team gutted all the good players for when JT comes back from the injury he would just want to be traded anyways.   We need to keep a core group that we can build around after JT recovers.

Completely agree. 

[wdleehi]

Did the Warriors blow it up after Curry's injury (and Durant leaving)?   


No.   They rearranged around what they considered the core and (unfortunately) won another title. 

[ozgod]

giannis wants out of milwaukee

damm right you trade brown and KP and jrue and get him and whoever else.

have him and tatum and white and PP

giannis can finish at rim way better than anyone we have and obviously thats an issue with joe blow as a coach(praying he is fired soon).

GO GET HIM BRAD!

WE WANT GIANNIS!

WE WANT GIANNIS!

WE WANT GIANNIS!

a champion who has won a title. would bring great balance to JT.

Why in the world would Milwaukee want that package for Gianni?s?  A overpaid Jaylen brown who is not a #1.  An old jrue.  A injury probed KP.  Maybe if we add five unprotected first round picks they?d bite.  All that package would do would hurt Mil by maybe making them decent.  Maybe.

Unfortunately since we are over the 2nd apron, we cannot aggregate players in trade. And trading Giannis for Brown straight up doesn't work because Giannis makes $1m more a year than Jaylen next season:



What about adding players up? A trade involving a combination of players, like Jrue + KP for Giannis + someone else (e.g. Connaughton who makes $9.4m) doesn't work even if the salaries add up because as a second apron team we cannot aggregate players in a trade. So if we want to trade Jrue, or KP, or Jaylen, it has to be by himself as long as we remain above the 2nd apron. We can get more than 1 player back as long as the team we are trading with is not a second apron team, and they can send less than 100% of salary they are bringing in as long as that trade does not push them above the first apron.



There's a lot of trade limitations we have because of the position we are at, above the 2nd apron.

The only way we could possibly get Giannis is if we somehow got under the 2nd apron first, by shedding $20m in salary, then we could try and aggregate salaries to get to Giannis's number.

Yes, all the talk of aprons is boring and confusing but they knew what they were getting into getting above the 2nd apron...the Suns are in the same situation, it's the penalty you pay for trying to put together a superteam. Putting it together is always easier than blowing it up.

[gift]

even if the Celtics won the title this year we had major questions about:

the affordability of Jaylen Brown
the health of KP
the retirement status of Al and Jrue.

those questions all still exist, but now with the added certainty of Tatum's absence.

i have no doubts this team could've gotten the title again this year. but next year was always a lesser expectation, even returning the same core. now, that core will be older, more injured/completely absent for the year with less flexibility to do anything to improve that.

i hate to say it. but "blow it up" might be the only real option here. when Tatum returns, he probably doesn't have a title contending core anymore no matter what. even bringing in Giannis probably doesn't do it because he'll be two years older, blows up the existing core and then you have a rehabbing Tatum and aging Giannis trying to gel in one year. the year after is another declining year for Giannis, though might be a stronger year for Tatum (fingers crossed).

if there's a way to snag a younger top guy to pair with Tatum's return, that would be great, but nothing on the horizon. asset building, at the risk of losing Tatum too, might be the best path toward another championship.

but all of that can be considered after the Celtics win a suddenly improbable one this year. 

[Who]

A trio of D White, Tatum and Jaylen is very good. Add a solid big and a solid bench such as Clint Capela as a big and I think that team is still a title contender.

I wouldn't blow it up. I would keep that trio and continue to build around them.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Here's one I was messing around with:

Celtics trade: Zinger, Holliday, 2 1sts
Celtics Receive: Cam Johnson, Gabe Vincent, and Dalton Knecht
Why? Gets the Cs under the 2nd apron. Knecht is done in LA and the Cs need the scoring next season. Cam Johnson fills the role as a stretch 4.

Raptors trade: RJ Barret
Raptors receive: Zinger
Why? Raptors offense is pretty wonky with Barnes-Ingram-Barret. One needs to go, and preferably to get a stretch big next to Barnes.

Nets trade: Cam Johnson
Nets receive: RJ Barrett, Rui Hachimura, 2 1sts
Why? They can take a chance on a couple guys for their offensive upside. They probably also receive picks for this deal.

Lakers trade: Rui Hachimura, Gabe Vincent, Dalton Knecht
Lakers receive: Holliday
Why? Lakers get a great role player next to James and Doncic for another championship push.

Edit: this trade could be expanded/adjusted for the Lakers to get Claxton or Poetl instead as their big man as well, but the trade would need to include their 31 1st.

[Who]

Lakers trade: Rui Hachimura, Gabe Vincent, Dalton Knecht
Lakers receive: Holliday
Why? Lakers get a great role player next to James and Doncic for another championship push.

Edit: this trade could be expanded/adjusted for the Lakers to get Claxton or Poetl instead as their big man as well, but the trade would need to include their 31 1st.

Is Jrue worth giving up Hachimura for?

Jrue hasn't played that well this season. In the playoffs, he is playing 34mpg but only scoring 9.7ppg 3.7rpg 4.3apg. Jrue shot only 35% on threes this season. 33% in the playoffs.

Hachimura was scoring 14.8ppg in 37mpg. He was taking 6.5 threes per game to Jrue's 3.5 threes per game. Hachimura was key to their versatile switching defense. He gave them a big body to defend opposing bigs and big forwards. He could switch 1-5. He looks more valuable to LAL on both offense and defense than Jrue would be.

Kind of depressing to think this is actually a question worth asking. Is Hachimura more valuable than Jrue? Yikes.

------------------------------------------

I consider a good chunk of Jrue's offensive value to be his steady ball-handling and passing. Those 4.3apg at a 2:1 AST:TOV ratio. He gives you a capable PG or excellent secondary ball-handling and passing at SG.

I don't think that skill-set is valuable to LAL because they already have Luka, LeBron and A Reaves who have the ball in their hands 90% of the time. They need finishers around them. Not ball-handlers / ball movers. Guys who can nail outside shots.

This is why I think Hachimura is more valuable offensively to what the Lakers need around their star players. I think Jrue would have more value to other teams who do not have as much ball-handling and playmaking as the Lakers do.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Lakers trade: Rui Hachimura, Gabe Vincent, Dalton Knecht
Lakers receive: Holliday
Why? Lakers get a great role player next to James and Doncic for another championship push.

Edit: this trade could be expanded/adjusted for the Lakers to get Claxton or Poetl instead as their big man as well, but the trade would need to include their 31 1st.

Is Jrue worth giving up Hachimura for?

Jrue hasn't played that well this season. In the playoffs, he is playing 34mpg but only scoring 9.7ppg 3.7rpg 4.3apg. Jrue shot only 35% on threes this season. 33% in the playoffs.

Hachimura was scoring 14.8ppg in 37mpg. He was taking 6.5 threes per game to Jrue's 3.5 threes per game. Hachimura was key to their versatile switching defense. He gave them a big body to defend opposing bigs and big forwards. He could switch 1-5. He looks more valuable to LAL on both offense and defense than Jrue would be.

Kind of depressing to think this is actually a question worth asking. Is Hachimura more valuable than Jrue? Yikes.

------------------------------------------

I consider a good chunk of Jrue's offensive value to be his steady ball-handling and passing. Those 4.3apg at a 2:1 AST:TOV ratio. He gives you a capable PG or excellent secondary ball-handling and passing at SG.

I don't think that skill-set is valuable to LAL because they already have Luka, LeBron and A Reaves who have the ball in their hands 90% of the time. They need finishers around them. Not ball-handlers / ball movers. Guys who can nail outside shots.

This is why I think Hachimura is more valuable offensively to what the Lakers need around their star players. I think Jrue would have more value to other teams who do not have as much ball-handling and playmaking as the Lakers do.

I prefer Holliday and think James would too. He's a more reliable role player on both sides. However, there are other ways this could work with Kleiber and other pieces.

[Who]

Here's one I was messing around with:

Celtics trade: Zinger, Holliday, 2 1sts
Celtics Receive: Cam Johnson, Gabe Vincent, and Dalton Knecht
Why? Gets the Cs under the 2nd apron. Knecht is done in LA and the Cs need the scoring next season. Cam Johnson fills the role as a stretch 4.

Nets trade: Cam Johnson
Nets receive: RJ Barrett, Rui Hachimura, 2 1sts
Why? They can take a chance on a couple guys for their offensive upside. They probably also receive picks for this deal.

I don't think Cam Johnson is that good of a PF. I think he is more of a SF. A SF who can play some PF but primarily a SF. He doesn't rebound well enough for PF. He is not physical enough as a defender to tackle big bodied PFs. He is more of a finesse SF in my book.

He would be an adequate temporary PF while Tatum is injured and an excellent backup SF/PF behind the Jays moving forward. I'd be delighted to have him. I just believe he is more of a finesse 3 than a PF.

Cam Johnson has been a disappointment in Brooklyn. I thought he could take a larger role offensively and grow as a player. It didn't happen. He was inconsistent as a scorer. Unable to create offense on his own consistently. He is much more comfortable as a 3rd or more likely 4th option on a good team. His defense was fairly average.

On this trade, I think Brooklyn is getting a huge bounty in return for Cam Johnson. I would think a straight swap of RJ Barrett for Cam is a fair deal. So getting Rui and 2 1sts on top is huge. Brooklyn have had too high an asking price on Cam in the last 2 trade deadlines and failed to find a trade both times. I don't think anyone is paying a high price for Cam. His offense isn't good enough. Not enough self-creation. And his defense doesn't make up for it. He is a nice player but not a player you pay a major bounty for.

[Who]

Raptors trade: RJ Barret
Raptors receive: Zinger
Why? Raptors offense is pretty wonky with Barnes-Ingram-Barret. One needs to go, and preferably to get a stretch big next to Barnes.

It is a bit wonky (the 3 of them) but if I were Toronto I'd give it a go first. I like their double center combo of Poeltl and Olynyk. Olynyk can give them a lot of the of the floor spacing that Zinger would.

I don't think Toronto would be that good of a fit for Porzingis. He is an individualistic player. Toronto already have loads of them. They need a connectivity player. Like a young Al Horford type. Someone who helps bind the pieces together. Add in Porzingis' injury proneness. I wouldn't target him.

I see Porzingis more as a piece for a 50 win team that could put them over the top. Less so for middle of the pack teams. His injury issues and lack of dependability make it harder for growing teams to give up long term value for him.

[Who]

Some teams I'd like Jrue on:

(1) NY Knicks. Starting at SG alongside Brunson. Josh Hart or Mitchell Robinson would be the pieces NY would have to try and make it happen.

(2) LA Clippers. Replace Norm Powell. Give them a tough glue guy and ball mover alongside Kawhi & Harden.

(3) Denver. Replace MPJ. Move C Braun to SF. Play Jrue in backcourt alongside Jamal Murray.

(4) Cleveland. Either to replace Garland or to be a 6th man behind Garland and D Mitchell. Maybe replacing D Hunter as 6th man in terms of salary slot. If Garland was traded and Jrue replacing him, it would be part of a larger trade. Not equivalent value.

(5) Minnesota. Replace Mike Conley. I am not sure how they could make the money work. DiVincenzo and Conley? I don't know. Jrue would an awesome fit at PG next to Ant and on their physical defensive minded roster.

(6) Dallas. Replace Klay as starting SG. Give them another steady ball-handler to help run the team. Kyrie and Jrue in the same backcourt would be deadly. Help guide the team with Cooper Flagg, AD and all their bigs up front. Maybe PJ Washington as a trade piece. Or PJ and Klay. Something like that.

(7) Milwaukee for Kuzma. Bucks get a replacement for Lillard while injured. Boston gets a replacement for Tatum while he is injured.

[8] Sacramento could swap DeRozan for Jrue. Jrue is the type of glue guy they need and a PG which they need. DeRozan has never fitted a need for Sacramento. Nor does he fit much of a need for BOS either though.

Others:

Is there a way to make a larger trade for B Beal or P George work? Jrue would be a good fit in both of those places. Not sure they have the pieces to make it work though.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Did the Warriors blow it up after Curry's injury (and Durant leaving)?   


No.   They rearranged around what they considered the core and (unfortunately) won another title.

lulz they won due to our choking. 

[Birdman]

Dallas not trading Flagg for Brown so ppl don?t think this, they are not trading Flagg for no one as they learn their lesson from trading Luka, fans would burn down Dallas

[ozgod]

Dallas not trading Flagg for Brown so ppl don?t think this, they are not trading Flagg for no one as they learn their lesson from trading Luka, fans would burn down Dallas

Not to mention they can?t, due to the salary disparity.

[Celtics2021]

Did the Warriors blow it up after Curry's injury (and Durant leaving)?   


No.   They rearranged around what they considered the core and (unfortunately) won another title.

There are some differences, however. 

1) When they lost Durant, they traded him for D?Angelo Russell, whom they subsequently traded for Andrew Wiggins and the pick that became Jonathan Kuminga.  That is different than the Celtics who are down Tatum but still have his massive salary on the books.

2) When they lost Curry, the season had started, and it was only a 4 month injury (he came back later that season for a game right before the Covid shutdown.

3) The Warriors shed about $13 million in payroll to get under the tax.  Most of that came from dumping Andre Iguodala with a 1st.  Iggy was a fine player, but averaged under 24 minutes a game for the Warriors his final year, so he was not critical.  The Celtics must move around $40 million in payroll this summer to get under the tax.  That is a completely different animal, especially with the tax penalties of the new CBA.