The Amazing Derrick White

[aefgogreen]

We woulda spanked the Warriors in 2022 if THIS D.White had showed up.

.

I know his stats aren't totally there, but I hope he makes the All-Star team this season. He deserves to be there. With KP coming back, his stats could take even more of a hit, though.

The East is awful and we're dominating.  These factors may open up the opportunity for us to get a third all star.

[Vermont Green]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

[Roy H.]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

The trade would have been the same one that was part of the 3-way deal:  Marcus for Tyus Jones and two #1s.  I have no idea if Brad would have pulled the trigger, but my guess is that trade was discussed before the day of the KP deal.  Kevin O'Connor is a little more decisive in his reporting:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal

[Vermont Green]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

The trade would have been the same one that was part of the 3-way deal:  Marcus for Tyus Jones and two #1s.  I have no idea if Brad would have pulled the trigger, but my guess is that trade was discussed before the day of the KP deal.  Kevin O'Connor is a little more decisive in his reporting:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal

Sorry, I don't buy it.  And even if you chose to believe Kevin O'Connor (I have no way to know what the Celtics may have really been thinking), I don't like the second trade at all and would be totally against that.  I could see/would be happy with Tyus Jones and picks and whatever (maybe RWill) going to POR, Holiday coming to BOS, Smart going to MEM.  That one pick in the MEM deal was a pretty good pick, as I recall.  Didn't it end up being pick 14 in 2024?  But even with that pick included, no thanks to taking the Pu Pu platter for Smart.

[Goldstar88]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

The trade would have been the same one that was part of the 3-way deal:  Marcus for Tyus Jones and two #1s.  I have no idea if Brad would have pulled the trigger, but my guess is that trade was discussed before the day of the KP deal.  Kevin O'Connor is a little more decisive in his reporting:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal

Sorry, I don't buy it.  And even if you chose to believe Kevin O'Connor (I have no way to know what the Celtics may have really been thinking), I don't like the second trade at all and would be totally against that.  I could see/would be happy with Tyus Jones and picks and whatever (maybe RWill) going to POR, Holiday coming to BOS, Smart going to MEM.  That one pick in the MEM deal was a pretty good pick, as I recall.  Didn't it end up being pick 14 in 2024?  But even with that pick included, no thanks to taking the Pu Pu platter for Smart

I don?t think that Jaylen and Jayson could have taken over as leaders of the team with Smart still here. Feel like that was a big part of him needing to be moved as well.

[Vermont Green]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

The trade would have been the same one that was part of the 3-way deal:  Marcus for Tyus Jones and two #1s.  I have no idea if Brad would have pulled the trigger, but my guess is that trade was discussed before the day of the KP deal.  Kevin O'Connor is a little more decisive in his reporting:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal

Sorry, I don't buy it.  And even if you chose to believe Kevin O'Connor (I have no way to know what the Celtics may have really been thinking), I don't like the second trade at all and would be totally against that.  I could see/would be happy with Tyus Jones and picks and whatever (maybe RWill) going to POR, Holiday coming to BOS, Smart going to MEM.  That one pick in the MEM deal was a pretty good pick, as I recall.  Didn't it end up being pick 14 in 2024?  But even with that pick included, no thanks to taking the Pu Pu platter for Smart

I don?t think that Jaylen and Jayson could have taken over as leaders of the team with Smart still here. Feel like that was a big part of him needing to be moved as well.

I understand the theory, the narrative, I just don't agree with it.  We made it to the finals with Smart.  Everything I saw indicated that Brown and Tatum loved Marcus Smart.  And if they were so bent on trading Smart, they would have done the MEM deal in the first place, not as a back up plan after the Brogdon plan fell through.

They traded Smart for Porzingis because they weren't able to trade Brogdon for Porzingis.  Think of it this way, Smart got them back even more than the Brogdon deal as reported.  They got Porzingis and picks for Smart instead of just Porzingis for Brogdon.  It seems pretty clear that both trades were on the table.  So why would you chose to trade Brogdon over a player you don't want anyway and who you could get more for?  I read that as they initially chose the Brogdon/LAC trade over the Smart/MEM trade because they wanted to keep Smart over Brogdon.  That does not logically lead to they knew they had to move Smart.  If they were bent on trading Smart, and had that MEM deal on the table, they would have jumped all over that.  They would not have tried to trade Brogdon first.

In the end, they traded Smart, Brogdon, Williams, Muscala, Gallinari, and I think one Pick that didn't come in from MEM, and got Holiday and Porzingis.  This idea that they knew they had to trade Smart just does not flow logically from any of this.  It is speculation, reading between the lines.  It is possible, I guess, but I am not convinced based on the evidence that I see.

[SparzWizard]

I thought they were helbent on trading Brogdon because of his known injury that could've impacted his next team during the season? They attached some picks with it? Smart took me by surprise but I'm also glad we moved on from him; the leadership and success won't happen if Smart was still here, and quite frankly, his atrocious 3 ball game.

[Goldstar88]

You're entitled to your feelings, but I think that most objective people would say that Jrue was a better fit for our team.  He's just a steadier player.  As I said, he's got all of Marcus' good traits, and none of the bad ones.

I've always acknowledged that Jrue is a 'better' player than Marcus. I don't think this has always been true in playoff settings where Jrue had a poor reputation before joining Boston, but he more than made up for it last year when we really needed him to perform. He was fantastic.

But my argument has always been against people who think Marcus was standing in the way of a championship and his mere presence is what prevented one from happening. In my alternate scenario, we would have had Marcus and Jrue. Yeah, we probably would have had to pick up another back-up Center and maybe we don't get 64 wins, but we definitely finish first in the conference. And then the playoff roster would have essentially been the same, but with the addition of Marcus.

I understand that Smart was a polarizing player, but he was a big part of establishing the culture that led to us winning it all. That and an incredibly easy playoff path. How would the Cs have fared if those teams had their stars and we were missing Tatum? As I mentioned before, all the credit in the world goes to Danny and Brad for building such consistently competitive teams, but I just think it's ridiculous people think the reason we won it all is because Marcus Smart was removed from the team. As if there were no other factors that changed from previous years to last year.

I have a more complicated view of Marcus.

I definitely agree that he wasn't "holding us back", necessarily.  He was one of the players who thrived under Ime and he was a crucial part of us making it to the Finals.  And, Marcus' grit and grind was a big part in team culture while the Jays developed.

But...  People focus a lot on Marcus' offensive decision making, which is fair.  His efficiency was never fantastic, and for every big shot he made, he seemed to make a bad decision to cancel it out over time.  But, where Marcus began to lose me as a fan was with his defense.  In both 2021 and 2023, his defense was very much "flip the switch", where his effort was pretty lazy.  Yes, he'd make spectacular plays from time to time, but his day-to-day defense suffered.  Marcus was a big reason why we were .500 in Brad's last year, and .500 for the first couple of months under Ime.  At the same time, he was calling out the Jays in the media.  It rubbed me the wrong way, and it caused friction within the team at the time.

I think the Marcus trade was mostly to get KP, but I do think that Brad (pushed by Wyc, allegedly) wanted a bit of a culture change, too.  I think that's why the Memphis aspect of the deal came together so quickly: I believe the reports that Brad was considering of doing the Memphis trade regardless of whether we did the Brogdon for KP deal.

But, intentional or not, there *has* been a change in culture.  Moving Marcus put the leadership yoke on Tatum and JB, and his brashness was replaced by calmness in Jrue.  We're just a calmer team now (and, reluctantly, Joe gets a lot of credit for that).  I think it's resulted in a better team that we wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it is pretty easy to see that overall, talent, fit, culture, whatever, Jrue is better than Marcus, and I love Marcus.  But it is also pretty clear to me that BOS preferred to trade Brogdon for Porzingis and keep Marcus.  They were willing to trade Smart for Porzingis but it is pretty clear that that was plan B, not plan A.

If they had traded Brogdon for Porzingis, I do not think they would have been looking to trade Marcus just to trade him.  I don't think they ever expected Holiday to be available when they were considering trading Brogdon.  But had this all worked out the other way, I think they still trade Smart for Holiday but I don't know what trade they could have done with MEM for Smart.

The trade would have been the same one that was part of the 3-way deal:  Marcus for Tyus Jones and two #1s.  I have no idea if Brad would have pulled the trigger, but my guess is that trade was discussed before the day of the KP deal.  Kevin O'Connor is a little more decisive in his reporting:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal

Sorry, I don't buy it.  And even if you chose to believe Kevin O'Connor (I have no way to know what the Celtics may have really been thinking), I don't like the second trade at all and would be totally against that.  I could see/would be happy with Tyus Jones and picks and whatever (maybe RWill) going to POR, Holiday coming to BOS, Smart going to MEM.  That one pick in the MEM deal was a pretty good pick, as I recall.  Didn't it end up being pick 14 in 2024?  But even with that pick included, no thanks to taking the Pu Pu platter for Smart

I don?t think that Jaylen and Jayson could have taken over as leaders of the team with Smart still here. Feel like that was a big part of him needing to be moved as well.

I understand the theory, the narrative, I just don't agree with it.  We made it to the finals with Smart.  Everything I saw indicated that Brown and Tatum loved Marcus Smart.  And if they were so bent on trading Smart, they would have done the MEM deal in the first place, not as a back up plan after the Brogdon plan fell through.

They traded Smart for Porzingis because they weren't able to trade Brogdon for Porzingis.  Think of it this way, Smart got them back even more than the Brogdon deal as reported.  They got Porzingis and picks for Smart instead of just Porzingis for Brogdon.  It seems pretty clear that both trades were on the table.  So why would you chose to trade Brogdon over a player you don't want anyway and who you could get more for?  I read that as they initially chose the Brogdon/LAC trade over the Smart/MEM trade because they wanted to keep Smart over Brogdon.  That does not logically lead to they knew they had to move Smart.  If they were bent on trading Smart, and had that MEM deal on the table, they would have jumped all over that.  They would not have tried to trade Brogdon first.

In the end, they traded Smart, Brogdon, Williams, Muscala, Gallinari, and I think one Pick that didn't come in from MEM, and got Holiday and Porzingis.  This idea that they knew they had to trade Smart just does not flow logically from any of this.  It is speculation, reading between the lines.  It is possible, I guess, but I am not convinced based on the evidence that I see.

This is what Brad had to say:

On the topic of Smart?s departure, Stevens indicated he would like for Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown to further develop their voice and leadership skills.

"We've been chock-full of a lot of quality people for a long time and that gives other people a voice... Obviously, we need Jayson (Tatum) and Jaylen (Brown) to continue to grow in that area and we think they?re among the best that there can be.

Stevens indicated that other members of the Celtics also have the chance to fill Smart?s shoes.
Other people will have an opportunity to do so. Any time that you have somebody that plays such a big role and has such a big personality (leave), there?s options or opportunities for somebody to step into that. He?s a good one, and we?ll miss him.

[Vermont Green]

I don't see anything in Steven's statement other than Marcus "was a good one", and that they will miss his leadership, requiring others to step up.  Nothing here implies that he believes Smart was holding Tatum or Brown or the team in general back or that he was some obstacle that needed to be traded.

In 2021-22, we made it to the finals with Smart.  Tatum was first team all NBA.  I don't see that as Smart holding back anyone or the team in general.

In 2022-23, Brown made 2nd team all NBA, Tatum first, Smart didn't seem to hold anyone back that season either.  The team had a meltdown vs MIA in the playoffs but if not for Tatum hurting his ankle in game 7, who knows.  Are we saying the meltdown was Smart's fault?

It is a funny thing to try and construct, that the Celtics needed to trade Smart because he was too much of a leader.  After Smart left, if anything Tatum regressed a little (ended lower in MVP voting) and Brown ended up not making all NBA.  Pritchard was the player that made a leap after Smart left but that was due to role and opportunity I would say.

So I don't believe, based on Steven's statements that he felt he "needed to trade" Smart.  If he did feel that way, I disagree, for all the reasons above.  The team got better because we added Porzingis and Holiday, not because we subtracted Marcus Smart.  There was no particular change in the trajectory of Tatum or Brown after Smart left.  Smart was traded to get Porzingis, a trade I was all for.  That improved the team tremendously, Porzingis changed so many things.  Then we got Holiday and that put us over the top.

[Phantom255x]

I think we could have won the title last year even with Smart instead of Jrue

My main argument in this thread is about the title, Derrick White. The Smart trade did allow him (and to an extent, Pritchard) to carve out a bigger role for the team and be more involved in the 4th quarter and clutch moments.

Idk if White is this good if Smart is still on the team. Pritchard may not have remained here either.

Now if we want to debate the trades, the dynamic, whether we win it all or not and roster construction that can be a different thread

[SparzWizard]

I think we could have won the title last year even with Smart instead of Jrue

My main argument in this thread is about the title, Derrick White. The Smart trade did allow him (and to an extent, Pritchard) to carve out a bigger role for the team and be more involved in the 4th quarter and clutch moments.

Idk if White is this good if Smart is still on the team. Pritchard may not have remained here either.

Now if we want to debate the trades, the dynamic, whether we win it all or not and roster construction that can be a different thread

Those comeback games involving Jrue would take a slightly different turn. I don't think Marcus would have willed us to those wins, esp those playoff wins. His defensive intensity dropped after winning DPOY and him bricking 3's don't help. Glad we have Jrue.

[Larry for 3]

I love Derek White. He?s fast becoming one of my all time favorite Celtics. I?d take him over Smart everyday of the week- it?s not even a question or hesitation. So glad I?d don?t have to watch Smart brick 3?s and flop around. Proof was in the pudding with that guy. Smart couldn?t get it done. White is an exactly what this team needed- clutch, on point?love the guy.

[Roy H.]

Going back to the OP, I do wish we found more shots for White in end of quarter situations.  I think he'd thrive in it.  But, same thing with Brown and KP.  The Tatum iso shouldn't be the primary option.

[blink]

Going back to the OP, I do wish we found more shots for White in end of quarter situations.  I think he'd thrive in it.  But, same thing with Brown and KP.  The Tatum iso shouldn't be the primary option.

I agree 100%.  DW especially seems to be able to make something out of nothing.   We really need to spread the ball around in the last seconds of quarters / games.   Make the other team try to figure out who we are going to.   We have a whole starting lineup capable of hitting big shots.

[Surferdad]

I think we could have won the title last year even with Smart instead of Jrue

My main argument in this thread is about the title, Derrick White. The Smart trade did allow him (and to an extent, Pritchard) to carve out a bigger role for the team and be more involved in the 4th quarter and clutch moments.

Idk if White is this good if Smart is still on the team. Pritchard may not have remained here either.

Now if we want to debate the trades, the dynamic, whether we win it all or not and roster construction that can be a different thread

I agree with this, exactly.  Nothing against Smart, but his departure seemed to allow White and even Pritchard to blossom. Jrue did not replace Smart, they had different roles with Jrue being the more unselfish player, thus allowing White and Pritchard to step up. And yes, we came close to losing PP altogether as he was unhappy with his minutes, IIRC.