How do you rate the Brown / Tatum era?

[tonydelk]

If they win it all this year it's an A+.  Anytime you win a championship that era is tops.  Until they win it's a B.  They are getting about as far as you can go without winning a championship.  No other team has had the same level of success over the last 7 years.

[bdm860]

I'd go even further and break down the Brown/Tatum era even more.

'16-'18 (includes 1 year pre-Tatum): this feels like an A to A+.  One of the best times to be a hardcore fan like most of us are.  Got to root for the team to succeed in the present (2 ECF appearances) while also being able to follow the draft with high level lotto picks, as well as the free agent market with cap room and trade market with a war chest of assets.  Nailed the most important draft picks, went 2 for 3 on big name free agents, team was constantly improving without tanking.  This was awesome.  Major misses being Durant, not dethroning LeBron in '18, Hayward's injury, and some would argue not making an all-in trade for Kawhi/Butler/Davis/George.

'19-'21: D+ to C-.  Blew a great opportunity in '19 with team issues.  Was able to tread water bringing in Kemba, but still had more talent going out than coming back in (losing Kyrie, Horford, Rozier, Hayward, Morris, while bringing in Kemba, Teague, Fournier, Kanter, Richardson, Schroder).  No big moves.  Still had some late lotto picks to root for, but no major draft success (not to say there weren't some solid hits though).  Blew an opportunity in the bubble with another Hayward injury.  This was a disappointing part of the era, but still came within spitting distance of the Finals.  Ended with Danny leaving, Stevens stepping away from the bench, personally wasn't seeing any championship success on the horizon.

'22-'24: A.  Was not expecting a championship contender going into '22 and current day juggernaut we have now, but here we are.  Team made several big moves (Horford, White, Brogdon/Holiday, Porzingis) where every trade seems like a hit.  '23 was disappointing, and the team could be looking at 3 Finals, 2-3 championships, but best team can get now is 1 ring.  2 Finals and hopefully 1 ring, still pretty good though.

Overall I'd say A, which seems generous given how long I rank that '19-'21 mini-era, but the years around it, and present day success/outlook make up for it.

[aefgogreen]

Easy A.

Awesome movie

[Donoghus]

I think there is a decent chance they lose to DEN in the Finals last year and we're looking at a Buffalo Bills like narrative around this team heading into the Finals right now.

[SparzWizard]

Around a C+ to B.

Eastern Conference Finals appearances are great, but I am looking for NBA championships (note: plural) with both Jays and especially this core. We blew it in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 and 2023. I expect nothing less of a championship this June.

Outside of 2023, how did we "blow it" in other years, do you think?

Last season was the first one in which I saw this team as not only a contender, but a favorite.  2022 was an excellent season in which we overachieved.

2023- lost to an 8 seed who shouldn't have belonged in the big stage
2022- led finals series 2-1, could've been up 3-1 but choked and blew 3 straight games including two at home.
2020- lost to 5-seed Heat in the bubble in ECF after a grueling 7-game showdown with the Raptors.
2019- had a world talent roster of Kyrie, JT, JB, and Horford and a recovering player in Hayward but didn't get to capitalize. Stole Game 1 in Milwaukee but lost 4 straight afterwards
2018- 3-3 playing Game 7 but just choked at home to one of the least talented LeBron Cavs.

Maybe I've started being hard on them after 2020. 2018 okay great first year together I understand. But we had that series and we're up 3-2 at one point. 2019 was just what even with Kyrie? 2020 was a bigger what...did they just thought that the Finals was dethroning the defending champs that year and that was it? I gave them no excuses from 2020 onward

[Redz]

Ask me again in a couple of weeks

[Roy H.]

Around a C+ to B.

Eastern Conference Finals appearances are great, but I am looking for NBA championships (note: plural) with both Jays and especially this core. We blew it in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 and 2023. I expect nothing less of a championship this June.

Outside of 2023, how did we "blow it" in other years, do you think?

Last season was the first one in which I saw this team as not only a contender, but a favorite.  2022 was an excellent season in which we overachieved.

2023- lost to an 8 seed who shouldn't have belonged in the big stage
2022- led finals series 2-1, could've been up 3-1 but choked and blew 3 straight games including two at home.
2020- lost to 5-seed Heat in the bubble in ECF after a grueling 7-game showdown with the Raptors.
2019- had a world talent roster of Kyrie, JT, JB, and Horford and a recovering player in Hayward but didn't get to capitalize. Stole Game 1 in Milwaukee but lost 4 straight afterwards
2018- 3-3 playing Game 7 but just choked at home to one of the least talented LeBron Cavs.

Maybe I've started being hard on them after 2020. 2018 okay great first year together I understand. But we had that series and we're up 3-2 at one point. 2019 was just what even with Kyrie? 2020 was a bigger what...did they just thought that the Finals was dethroning the defending champs that year and that was it? I gave them no excuses from 2020 onward

Outside of last year (when they underachieved) and Kyrie's last year (when he quit) I take the overall position that playoff basketball is really hard.  It's helped me avoid disappointment more.

To me, this is the second "special" season we've had recently.  The first was 2022, with a .500 team being transformed into a Finalist. It's understandable that they didn't win their first time out.  This season, it's time to close the deal. If things don't go like they are supposed to, I expect I will be disappointed, probably even more so than last year.

[Who]

I am trying to think through the argument that you can be an A grade without winning titles.

What examples in NBA History would you call an A grade era while falling short of winning titles?

I was thinking about a bit about Dirk Nowitzki

[8] 00s Mavs

In a what if scenario ... what if Dirk never won that 2011 title.

What if we end his playoff career at 2010. Would we give Dirk a grade A for his Dallas Mavericks era?

I was looking at his playoff resume a few weeks ago. I was surprised how few long playoff runs he had. He had the two trips to the Finals (including 2011 which we are not counting here) and one trip to the WCF in 2003. Half of his playoff appearances ended in the first round. The rest ended in the 2nd round.

Dallas would have had the Nash, Dirk, Finley era. Then the Dirk & Jason Terry era when they made the Finals but lost to D-Wade and Shaq. They followed that up with a 67 win season but lost in the 1st round to Baron Davis Warriors team. Then they trade for Jason Kidd but it doesn't work. They get beat by CP3 in 2008, then Melo's Nuggets in 2009 and Duncan's Spurs in 2010. An old beat up team. It looked over. It wasn't but let's say we end it there.

Would we give Dirk's Mavs era an A?

One Finals appearance, loss. One other WCF run, loss. Everything else was either a first round loss or a second round loss. Lots of 50 win seasons. An MVP campaign. And one of the smoothest most beautiful games in Dirk to watch.

I am not sure I would.

Now the title in 2011 changes everything. Of course it is an A. And Dirk's legacy is completely altered because of that title.

Tatum / Jaylen already have some more playoff success / long runs than Dirk. Although Tatum has not yet won an MVP. And I would take Dirk as the most singularly enjoyable player to watch of the three. I love his game.

[Who]

I am trying to think through the argument that you can be an A grade without winning titles.

What examples in NBA History would you call an A grade era while falling short of winning titles?

(9) Steve Nash 00s Suns

So from when he returns in 2004-05 to their WCF finals run in 2010 is their period of success. They become a .500 team after that.

So they never won a title. Never made the Finals. They did make the WCF 3 times. They lost to San Antonio in 2005, to Dallas in 2006 and to the LA Lakers in 2010. They lost to San Antonio in the 2nd round in 2007 and in the first round in 2008. Failed to make the playoffs in 2009 as one of the most successful regular season teams ever not to make the playoffs.

They were arguably the most exciting team in the league during this period playing beautiful basketball. Nash was one of the best most exciting playmakers of All-Time. Amare Stoudemire was one of the most exciting young bigs in the league. Physically and athletically incredible. Incredible dunks. Dunks, threes, transition hoops.

Would you give the Steve Nash Suns era an A?

I still have a bitter taste about it. As good as they were, to not win a title and to not even make it to the Finals leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I am not sure I can give that an A. I am more inclined to a B.

[Neurotic Guy]

I am trying to think through the argument that you can be an A grade without winning titles.

What examples in NBA History would you call an A grade era while falling short of winning titles?

I was thinking about a bit about Dirk Nowitzki

[8] 00s Mavs

In a what if scenario ... what if Dirk never won that 2011 title.

What if we end his playoff career at 2010. Would we give Dirk a grade A for his Dallas Mavericks era?

I was looking at his playoff resume a few weeks ago. I was surprised how few long playoff runs he had. He had the two trips to the Finals (including 2011 which we are not counting here) and one trip to the WCF in 2003. Half of his playoff appearances ended in the first round. The rest ended in the 2nd round.

Dallas would have had the Nash, Dirk, Finley era. Then the Dirk & Jason Terry era when they made the Finals but lost to D-Wade and Shaq. They followed that up with a 67 win season but lost in the 1st round to Baron Davis Warriors team. Then they trade for Jason Kidd but it doesn't work. They get beat by CP3 in 2008, then Melo's Nuggets in 2009 and Duncan's Spurs in 2010. An old beat up team. It looked over. It wasn't but let's say we end it there.

Would we give Dirk's Mavs era an A?

One Finals appearance, loss. One other WCF run, loss. Everything else was either a first round loss or a second round loss. Lots of 50 win seasons. An MVP campaign. And one of the smoothest most beautiful games in Dirk to watch.

I am not sure I would.

Now the title in 2011 changes everything. Of course it is an A. And Dirk's legacy is completely altered because of that title.

Tatum / Jaylen already have some more playoff success / long runs than Dirk. Although Tatum has not yet won an MVP. And I would take Dirk as the most singularly enjoyable player to watch of the three. I love his game.

That was a great read. I always have thought of Dirk as an A player.  I don’t think losing in 2011 would change that for me. The Mavs run that you chronicle through Dirk’s career speaks to how difficult it is to get to the Finals and then to get the ring. There are other great examples provided above.  So much can happen in a playoff run to derail a great team - anything from bad luck, to injury, to rough matchups, to finding yourself in the way of a suddenly hot team. 
The Celtics always need to think that they may never get there again - because they very well may not.  And though there are occasional dynasties, the greater likelihood is one and done. And it’s even more often none and done. 

[ManchesterCelticsFan]

I voted for regular season only. Which ranged from B+ to A- based on wins except 2020-21 which was a C grade year at 0.500. This year regular season was an A. The playoffs grade is definitely "incomplete" without championships. Win 1 championship gives them an A-, win 2 champions gives them an A, win 3 championships gives them an A+. Keep adding pluses for any potential subsequent championship. The 17x champions Boston Celtics should not grade on a curve for near misses of championship titles.

[jpotter33]

B+

Need titles to be an A.

Short of titles, this is about as good as it gets. Sustaned winning. Opportunity to win a title most years. Several long playoff runs. Short of a title, this is as good as it gets.

Yeah, I think this is right.

If we win the title, I think we jump to the A, and if we get another one with this core before it's all over, then it's an A+. Though I think you can make an argument that with the sustained success over so many years even one title would get you to an A+, especially given how historically dominant this team was all season and how a convincing title this year will put this team in the conversation one of the best overall statistical teams ever.

[Moranis]

Around a C+ to B.

Eastern Conference Finals appearances are great, but I am looking for NBA championships (note: plural) with both Jays and especially this core. We blew it in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022 and 2023. I expect nothing less of a championship this June.

Outside of 2023, how did we "blow it" in other years, do you think?

Last season was the first one in which I saw this team as not only a contender, but a favorite.  2022 was an excellent season in which we overachieved.

2023- lost to an 8 seed who shouldn't have belonged in the big stage
2022- led finals series 2-1, could've been up 3-1 but choked and blew 3 straight games including two at home.
2020- lost to 5-seed Heat in the bubble in ECF after a grueling 7-game showdown with the Raptors.
2019- had a world talent roster of Kyrie, JT, JB, and Horford and a recovering player in Hayward but didn't get to capitalize. Stole Game 1 in Milwaukee but lost 4 straight afterwards
2018- 3-3 playing Game 7 but just choked at home to one of the least talented LeBron Cavs.

Maybe I've started being hard on them after 2020. 2018 okay great first year together I understand. But we had that series and we're up 3-2 at one point. 2019 was just what even with Kyrie? 2020 was a bigger what...did they just thought that the Finals was dethroning the defending champs that year and that was it? I gave them no excuses from 2020 onward

The problem with this analysis is just doesn't match reality or history.  The simple truth is, Boston hasn't had a top 10 player in the league until the last 3 seasons and that player has most often been paired with a top 25 player as the best running mate.  You are treating these guys like they are all all time greats.  They aren't.  This team has pretty consistently overachieved and overachieved at a pretty high level given the totality of their time together and their actual skill level as players.

[jpotter33]

I think there is a decent chance they lose to DEN in the Finals last year and we're looking at a Buffalo Bills like narrative around this team heading into the Finals right now.

Ha yeah, I've thought about this myself. I definitely don't think we were beating Denver last year with a badly injured Brogdon and several other players banged up and not 100%.

While obviously HOW we lost to Miami was bad, from a narrative standpoint it may be best that we didn't lose another Finals last year. I mean, that's the whole thing with Lebron, right? He drug so many mediocre teams to the Finals, but when he faced stiffer competition he couldn't get it done in the Finals more often than not, which has somewhat tarnished his legacy - at least in terms of the GOAT debate.

[SparzWizard]

I think there is a decent chance they lose to DEN in the Finals last year and we're looking at a Buffalo Bills like narrative around this team heading into the Finals right now.

Ha yeah, I've thought about this myself. I definitely don't think we were beating Denver last year with a badly injured Brogdon and several other players banged up and not 100%.

While obviously HOW we lost to Miami was bad, from a narrative standpoint it may be best that we didn't lose another Finals last year. I mean, that's the whole thing with Lebron, right? He drug so many mediocre teams to the Finals, but when he faced stiffer competition he couldn't get it done in the Finals more often than not, which has somewhat tarnished his legacy - at least in terms of the GOAT debate.

But making it to the Finals is an accomplishment rather than losing in the ECF. Celtics probably would've lost in 5 to Denver with four close games.

LeBron's legacy was already tarnished when he formed a superteam in Miami and lost in the first year.