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Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« on: July 23, 2023, 02:51:21 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Grant on the difference between the following stats under Ime and then Joe:

2022 (Ime) - 2nd in defensive rating, 9th in offensive rating
2023 (Joe) - 10th in defensive rating, 4th in offensive rating

Quote
Williams, speaking on “The Old Man and the Three” podcast with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter earlier this week, said coaches in the NBA have different philosophies or ideals. He feels as though it largely boils down to a “matter of emphasis.”

Udoka relied on the notion that if an opponent scored in the 80s or 90s, the Celtics would have a really good chance to beat them. Mazzulla often preached how if the Celtics hit 20 3-pointers in a game, they’d have a really good chance to win.

“That’s why I think this past year’s team had a little bit less connectivity on the defensive side of the ball,” Williams said. “It wasn’t necessarily the priority or emphasis, while in the years prior, it had been. That’s not a knock or anything like that.”

And on the issues with late game execution:

Quote
[Redick] also asked Williams about the Celtics’ inconsistency with late-game execution. Williams said the problem sometimes stemmed from role players not hitting shots, which led to aggression downhill from Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

In the fourth quarter, Williams said, the pace slowed down, and the Celtics try to make sure they didn’t lose the game rather than going out to win it. Having said that, Williams has seen major strides in that area from Brown, Tatum, and the supporting cast.

“The late game has grown,” Williams told Redick and Alter. “Before, I think with our two superstars, it wasn’t natural at first for them to pass and move the ball. They’ve gotten so much better at that, which is why I think our late-game numbers have gotten better.”

None of this is new, but it's the first time we've heard it from a player.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/07/22/grant-williams-compared-ime-udoka-joe-mazzulla-coaching-philosophies/

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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2023, 10:39:02 AM »

Offline boscel33

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Quote from: ozgod on July 23, 2023, 02:51:21 AM
Grant on the difference between the following stats under Ime and then Joe:

2022 (Ime) - 2nd in defensive rating, 9th in offensive rating
2023 (Joe) - 10th in defensive rating, 4th in offensive rating

Quote
Williams, speaking on “The Old Man and the Three” podcast with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter earlier this week, said coaches in the NBA have different philosophies or ideals. He feels as though it largely boils down to a “matter of emphasis.”

Udoka relied on the notion that if an opponent scored in the 80s or 90s, the Celtics would have a really good chance to beat them. Mazzulla often preached how if the Celtics hit 20 3-pointers in a game, they’d have a really good chance to win.

“That’s why I think this past year’s team had a little bit less connectivity on the defensive side of the ball,” Williams said. “It wasn’t necessarily the priority or emphasis, while in the years prior, it had been. That’s not a knock or anything like that.”

And on the issues with late game execution:

Quote
[Redick] also asked Williams about the Celtics’ inconsistency with late-game execution. Williams said the problem sometimes stemmed from role players not hitting shots, which led to aggression downhill from Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

In the fourth quarter, Williams said, the pace slowed down, and the Celtics try to make sure they didn’t lose the game rather than going out to win it. Having said that, Williams has seen major strides in that area from Brown, Tatum, and the supporting cast.

“The late game has grown,” Williams told Redick and Alter. “Before, I think with our two superstars, it wasn’t natural at first for them to pass and move the ball. They’ve gotten so much better at that, which is why I think our late-game numbers have gotten better.”

None of this is new, but it's the first time we've heard it from a player.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/07/22/grant-williams-compared-ime-udoka-joe-mazzulla-coaching-philosophies/

I'll take Ime's philosophy.  let me hold the other team to below 100, that way I'm not relying on shooters to make the shots.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2023, 10:46:36 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Quote from: boscel33 on July 23, 2023, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: ozgod on July 23, 2023, 02:51:21 AM
Grant on the difference between the following stats under Ime and then Joe:

2022 (Ime) - 2nd in defensive rating, 9th in offensive rating
2023 (Joe) - 10th in defensive rating, 4th in offensive rating

Quote
Williams, speaking on “The Old Man and the Three” podcast with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter earlier this week, said coaches in the NBA have different philosophies or ideals. He feels as though it largely boils down to a “matter of emphasis.”

Udoka relied on the notion that if an opponent scored in the 80s or 90s, the Celtics would have a really good chance to beat them. Mazzulla often preached how if the Celtics hit 20 3-pointers in a game, they’d have a really good chance to win.

“That’s why I think this past year’s team had a little bit less connectivity on the defensive side of the ball,” Williams said. “It wasn’t necessarily the priority or emphasis, while in the years prior, it had been. That’s not a knock or anything like that.”

And on the issues with late game execution:

Quote
[Redick] also asked Williams about the Celtics’ inconsistency with late-game execution. Williams said the problem sometimes stemmed from role players not hitting shots, which led to aggression downhill from Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

In the fourth quarter, Williams said, the pace slowed down, and the Celtics try to make sure they didn’t lose the game rather than going out to win it. Having said that, Williams has seen major strides in that area from Brown, Tatum, and the supporting cast.

“The late game has grown,” Williams told Redick and Alter. “Before, I think with our two superstars, it wasn’t natural at first for them to pass and move the ball. They’ve gotten so much better at that, which is why I think our late-game numbers have gotten better.”

None of this is new, but it's the first time we've heard it from a player.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/07/22/grant-williams-compared-ime-udoka-joe-mazzulla-coaching-philosophies/

I'll take Ime's philosophy.  let me hold the other team to below 100, that way I'm not relying on shooters to make the shots.

Yeah, I think most here agree.  I hate the idea of just trying to out-3 the opponent. Even if you have Steph, Klay, etc. it’s still not the right philosophy.  Over-reliance in the 3 leads to bad habits. 

Hope the new coaching staff shifts gears.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2023, 11:14:38 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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Quote from: boscel33 on July 23, 2023, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: ozgod on July 23, 2023, 02:51:21 AM
Grant on the difference between the following stats under Ime and then Joe:

2022 (Ime) - 2nd in defensive rating, 9th in offensive rating
2023 (Joe) - 10th in defensive rating, 4th in offensive rating

Quote
Williams, speaking on “The Old Man and the Three” podcast with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter earlier this week, said coaches in the NBA have different philosophies or ideals. He feels as though it largely boils down to a “matter of emphasis.”

Udoka relied on the notion that if an opponent scored in the 80s or 90s, the Celtics would have a really good chance to beat them. Mazzulla often preached how if the Celtics hit 20 3-pointers in a game, they’d have a really good chance to win.

“That’s why I think this past year’s team had a little bit less connectivity on the defensive side of the ball,” Williams said. “It wasn’t necessarily the priority or emphasis, while in the years prior, it had been. That’s not a knock or anything like that.”

And on the issues with late game execution:

Quote
[Redick] also asked Williams about the Celtics’ inconsistency with late-game execution. Williams said the problem sometimes stemmed from role players not hitting shots, which led to aggression downhill from Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

In the fourth quarter, Williams said, the pace slowed down, and the Celtics try to make sure they didn’t lose the game rather than going out to win it. Having said that, Williams has seen major strides in that area from Brown, Tatum, and the supporting cast.

“The late game has grown,” Williams told Redick and Alter. “Before, I think with our two superstars, it wasn’t natural at first for them to pass and move the ball. They’ve gotten so much better at that, which is why I think our late-game numbers have gotten better.”

None of this is new, but it's the first time we've heard it from a player.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/07/22/grant-williams-compared-ime-udoka-joe-mazzulla-coaching-philosophies/

I'll take Ime's philosophy.  let me hold the other team to below 100, that way I'm not relying on shooters to make the shots.

Yeah, defense is something that can be improved in-game by focusing on it more. Shooting... not so much
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 11:16:49 AM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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Quote from: Neurotic Guy on July 23, 2023, 10:46:36 AM
Quote from: boscel33 on July 23, 2023, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: ozgod on July 23, 2023, 02:51:21 AM
Grant on the difference between the following stats under Ime and then Joe:

2022 (Ime) - 2nd in defensive rating, 9th in offensive rating
2023 (Joe) - 10th in defensive rating, 4th in offensive rating

Quote
Williams, speaking on “The Old Man and the Three” podcast with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter earlier this week, said coaches in the NBA have different philosophies or ideals. He feels as though it largely boils down to a “matter of emphasis.”

Udoka relied on the notion that if an opponent scored in the 80s or 90s, the Celtics would have a really good chance to beat them. Mazzulla often preached how if the Celtics hit 20 3-pointers in a game, they’d have a really good chance to win.

“That’s why I think this past year’s team had a little bit less connectivity on the defensive side of the ball,” Williams said. “It wasn’t necessarily the priority or emphasis, while in the years prior, it had been. That’s not a knock or anything like that.”

And on the issues with late game execution:

Quote
[Redick] also asked Williams about the Celtics’ inconsistency with late-game execution. Williams said the problem sometimes stemmed from role players not hitting shots, which led to aggression downhill from Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown.

In the fourth quarter, Williams said, the pace slowed down, and the Celtics try to make sure they didn’t lose the game rather than going out to win it. Having said that, Williams has seen major strides in that area from Brown, Tatum, and the supporting cast.

“The late game has grown,” Williams told Redick and Alter. “Before, I think with our two superstars, it wasn’t natural at first for them to pass and move the ball. They’ve gotten so much better at that, which is why I think our late-game numbers have gotten better.”

None of this is new, but it's the first time we've heard it from a player.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/07/22/grant-williams-compared-ime-udoka-joe-mazzulla-coaching-philosophies/

I'll take Ime's philosophy.  let me hold the other team to below 100, that way I'm not relying on shooters to make the shots.

Yeah, I think most here agree.  I hate the idea of just trying to out-3 the opponent. Even if you have Steph, Klay, etc. it’s still not the right philosophy.  Over-reliance in the 3 leads to bad habits. 

Hope the new coaching staff shifts gears.

Strongly disagree. I like the Brad Stevens way because defense is on the players. Either you want to play it or you dont. You need a coach to bark at you about putting effort on defense? Grant is Unathletic, poor passer, terrible rebounder, undersized, cant put the ball on the floor, plays below the rim, cant create for himself cant create for others. Beyond the corner 3 only thing that kept him on the court was Celtics lack of beef beyond a 6'6" big. I'm glad Danny Ainge prototypes are being moved out of the system.

You may not personally like that style of basketball but it opens up lanes when defense needs to constantly stay with shooters. Ime's offense thumbs down 2 snaps in a Z formation hated it!
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM »

Offline cman88

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it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to? and what about the DPOY?

I do think defense should be emphasized more. but I mean the talent is still there. its an effort issue.

Just like the team coming out lackadaisical after a win giving no effort because they expect the other team to lay down.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM »

Online Who

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Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2023, 03:11:26 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

And it wasn’t really the same team. We started White over RWill. RWill only played, I think, 35 games.  Very different team defensively.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2023, 03:43:42 PM »

Online jambr380

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Quote from: Vermont Green on July 23, 2023, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

And it wasn’t really the same team. We started White over RWill. RWill only played, I think, 35 games.  Very different team defensively.

True, but then again White was our only player to make an All-Defensive team, so it's hard to really point to him starting as an issue.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2023, 04:20:28 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Quote from: jambr380 on July 23, 2023, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Vermont Green on July 23, 2023, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

And it wasn’t really the same team. We started White over RWill. RWill only played, I think, 35 games.  Very different team defensively.

True, but then again White was our only player to make an All-Defensive team, so it's hard to really point to him starting as an issue.

White wasn't the issue at all. Smart took a big step back, not sure if that was an effort issue because he was in his feeling about Ime or if he's starting to decline - which is possible with his style of play. But he wasn't the same level of defender the year before when he was the head of the snake. Then you double down on that with the issue of Rob not being there to clean up mistakes because he was out or working his way back into shape.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2023, 05:27:48 PM »

Offline gouki88

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That late-game philosophy of simply trying to run out the clock drove me insane. Praying it's in the bin, where it belongs
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2023, 06:47:04 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote from: RJ87 on July 23, 2023, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: jambr380 on July 23, 2023, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Vermont Green on July 23, 2023, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

And it wasn’t really the same team. We started White over RWill. RWill only played, I think, 35 games.  Very different team defensively.

True, but then again White was our only player to make an All-Defensive team, so it's hard to really point to him starting as an issue.

White wasn't the issue at all. Smart took a big step back, not sure if that was an effort issue because he was in his feeling about Ime or if he's starting to decline - which is possible with his style of play. But he wasn't the same level of defender the year before when he was the head of the snake. Then you double down on that with the issue of Rob not being there to clean up mistakes because he was out or working his way back into shape.

This. Plus Horford lost another step as he gets older. Getting Porzingis as a Horford replacement and moving Horford to the bench is huge.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2023, 01:03:30 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

Excellent, you must have played the game.

Team defense is a complex symphony. It takes effort, yes, but also positioning, anticipation, help defense that happens in unison with the 5 players on a string, rotating with each pass and dribble penetration. If the coach does not drill on these things consistently in practice, the players get rusty and out of sync. Plus, the lack of emphasis on defense by Mr. Magoo translates to a lack of focus on that end of the floor by the team. You cannot rely on consistent high percentage shooting from 3 from game to game. We saw it over and over this season when the team went cold. However, you can always rely on a strong team defense night after night if it is emphasized as important and worked on in practice.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2023, 07:34:17 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Quote from: tenn_smoothie on July 24, 2023, 01:03:30 AM
Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

Excellent, you must have played the game.

Team defense is a complex symphony. It takes effort, yes, but also positioning, anticipation, help defense that happens in unison with the 5 players on a string, rotating with each pass and dribble penetration. If the coach does not drill on these things consistently in practice, the players get rusty and out of sync. Plus, the lack of emphasis on defense by Mr. Magoo translates to a lack of focus on that end of the floor by the team. You cannot rely on consistent high percentage shooting from 3 from game to game. We saw it over and over this season when the team went cold. However, you can always rely on a strong team defense night after night if it is emphasized as important and worked on in practice.

Yeah the regular season is where habits are built. I don’t think any team can just “turn it on” once the playoffs start. You can’t “cheat the process” even if on paper, a team should be a strong defensive outfit.
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Re: Interesting take on GWill on the differences between Joe and Ime
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2023, 08:23:52 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Quote from: hpantazo on July 23, 2023, 06:47:04 PM
Quote from: RJ87 on July 23, 2023, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: jambr380 on July 23, 2023, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Vermont Green on July 23, 2023, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: Who on July 23, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: cman88 on July 23, 2023, 11:21:48 AM
it was essentially the same roster last year. Isn't it kind of an indictment on the players if they cant play defense unless the coach is yelling at them to?
No.

Coaching has a huge impact on your team defense. One on one defense is more about effort. Team defense is about drilling & emphasis. Getting everyone and keeping everyone on the same page throughout the season. Positive reinforcement of defensive principles and negative feedback when those principles are not being adhered to.

And it wasn’t really the same team. We started White over RWill. RWill only played, I think, 35 games.  Very different team defensively.

True, but then again White was our only player to make an All-Defensive team, so it's hard to really point to him starting as an issue.

White wasn't the issue at all. Smart took a big step back, not sure if that was an effort issue because he was in his feeling about Ime or if he's starting to decline - which is possible with his style of play. But he wasn't the same level of defender the year before when he was the head of the snake. Then you double down on that with the issue of Rob not being there to clean up mistakes because he was out or working his way back into shape.

This. Plus Horford lost another step as he gets older. Getting Porzingis as a Horford replacement and moving Horford to the bench is huge.

I am not saying that White is the problem, what I was saying is that it is not true that it was the same team defensively as the previous season.  Defense is not just the collection of individual defenders, it is about team defense.  If you take out a center and put in a guard, all things equal, you are not going to be as good on defense.  In the case of the Celtics, you took out a very good defensive center and put in a very good defensive guard, but that is still a net decline in your overall defense.  It changes how the entire team has to play defense.

This coming season, I expect we will start Porzingis and RWill or Porzingis and Horford, along with White, Brown, and Tatum.  Our defense should be excellent, even considering we are losing a very good individual defender in Marcus Smart.  As compared to the 2021-22 team that was so good, we take out Smart but replace him with White.  And then we are going to have Porzingis and RWill probably instead of Horford and RWill.  Smart and Horford were really good but I think White and Porzingis are fine.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 08:33:23 AM by Vermont Green »
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