Author Topic: How much has JB sacrificed? (Read 4497 times)

Roy H. · « **on:** February 21, 2023, 08:00:18 AM »

This isn't a "bash Jaylen" thread. It's not a "does Jaylen help us win" thread. But, in an interview JB touched on a narrative that has been in place for years now:

Quote

On Saturday, Brown opened up about how he has learned to embrace his role and coexist with his superstar teammate.

"It takes sacrifice on my behalf," Brown told reporters at NBA All-Star Weekend in Salt Lake City. "It's definitely a lot of opportunities that you can be a guy. But the ultimate goal for me and Jayson has always been to win games.

"So when you see team dynamics, there's nothing wrong with doing your job on the team. So throughout my career, I've learned to be and play the role that has been needed for me to play, and I think that's part of why the success has been able to happen. Being able to humble yourself and be like yeah, I know I could be something somewhere else, but there's no problem being a great team guy and winning here in Boston."

While Brown might be considered the Celtics' No. 2 option, you wouldn't know it looking strictly at the numbers. The 26-year-old is averaging a career-high 26.5 points and 7.0 rebounds per game while shooting 48.7 percent from the floor. His outstanding play earned him the second All-Star nod of his career.

First, the context is important, regarding humbling himself and being a great team guy. That's the right mindset.

But, in terms of "sacrifice", is that necessarily so? JB is a two-time All-Star with a shot at All-NBA. He's going to get a max contract, and perhaps a supermax.

He's only getting 1.2 FGAs fewer than Tatum per game, and he's presumably seeing fewer double teams, etc., than he would on another squad. He gets moments to shine in the 4th quarter, as he and Tatum take about the same number of shots in the 4th.

The one area I can't speak to is marketing. Tatum is probably seen as the bigger star and gets more credit for the team's success. But, the grass isn't always greener there, either. JB could easily be living Paul Pierce's existence leading a borderline playoff team. Pierce was a hero locally, but I don't think he ever got the league-wide acclaim that JB might be hoping for.

I think that a lot of guys, in all sports, have thoughts like this. A famous example is Kyrie with Lebron. Kyrie resented being in Lebron's shadow, and now three teams later he's still looking for the right fit. His star was never as bright as when he was sharing the spotlight.

So, I guess that's the argument: if Jaylen left Boston to be the clear #1 on another team, would he blossom? Or, is his best situation individually in Boston?

Who · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2023, 08:17:51 AM »

Yes, I think so. Prior to the Celtics turning around their fortunes last season, I was worried Jaylen would want to leave because the allure of being the main man somewhere else would be too strong to turn down when only leaving a .500 team.

I do think he is willing to sacrifice that opportunity in order to play for a Championship so I am no longer worried about Jaylen leaving but I certainly was 12-15 months ago.

It is a sacrifice because he is an ambitious competitive guy. He wants to know his limits. Just how good can I be? Can I be a franchise guy? Can I be a top 10 player in the league? Can I be an MVP player? Just how good can I be?

Here I have to play second fiddle to someone else (Tatum). Just how good could I be if everything was running through me? If I had as many touches and time on the ball as Luka Doncic or James Harden? Could I be the next Kobe Bryant? Could I be better? Or if less, could be Carmelo Anthony?

Or am I just going to stay in someone else's shadow ... and never know just how good I could have been if I had of taken the risk to leave and find out.

Who · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2023, 08:23:24 AM »

Quote from: Roy H. on February 21, 2023, 08:00:18 AM

I think that a lot of guys, in all sports, have thoughts like this. A famous example is Kyrie with Lebron. Kyrie resented being in Lebron's shadow, and now three teams later he's still looking for the right fit. His star was never as bright as when he was sharing the spotlight.

Yes and at all levels of the team.

I was a big fan of Glen Davis wanting to leave the team to try and be a starting player somewhere. I didn't think he was good enough to be a quality starter and was instead in his right role here in Boston but I loved his ambition and courage to pursue it. He had done well enough as a starter with KG out in 2009 to get a taste for it and he went after it.

Other example was Al Harrington leaving Indiana where he was a Sixth Man of the Year candidate in order to get a starring role in Atlanta. Now Al wasn't good enough to be a real star and instead became an empty stat stuffer on bad teams but I loved his ambition and cheered him on for trying.

It is hard to know where your boundaries are without taking the risk to find out. I love seeing players push themselves to find out what their maximum level is. Just how good can I be? I love that.

And it happens at all levels. 3rd stringers to rotation players. Bench players to starters. Starter to low level star (Jerami Grant). Complementary star to franchise player (Joe Johnson).

And I do think Jaylen would have wanted that for himself if the team was still floundering around .500 instead of competing for a Championship.

I certainly would have.

Who · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2023, 08:28:53 AM »

Quote from: Roy H. on February 21, 2023, 08:00:18 AM

So, I guess that's the argument: if Jaylen left Boston to be the clear #1 on another team, would he blossom? Or, is his best situation individually in Boston?

I don't think Jaylen would be successful as a #1 option because of his lack of passing ability. 3.2apg against 20.2 FGA and 5.5 FTA. A 3.2apg to a 3.0 turnovers per game ratio. Both are very bad numbers.

He is best suited to being a 2nd or 3rd option as a result of this.

His lack of passing makes it hard for him to improve the players around him. Or to make their lives easier by putting them in positions to succeed through good passing.

He is not a defensive leader / organizer either. He is a good man defender but not a team identity changing defensive weapon. So he doesn't make his teammates better there either.

For these reasons, he is limited in his ability of maxing out the players around him. He is best at looking after himself - looking after his own duties and taking care of them at a very good level. Of scoring 25ppg-30ppg, rebounding well 5-7rpg and playing good man defense. That is not a leader. A leader is someone that improves the others around him. Jaylen is best in a complementary role to someone else (and even here his lack of passing causes him issues).

Boston is about as perfect a situation as Jaylen could find himself in. I do not think he would blossom elsewhere although he could increase his stats some and get more media attention but not the team success. So a 30-35ppg with 6-8rpg guy. Someone who gets put on top ten lists. But not someone who wins many playoff series. So more individual success but far less team success.

BitterJim · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2023, 09:04:00 AM »

I don't think he's still sacrificing as much now as he was a few years ago. He's obviously flourished as a second option next to Tatum, but when Kyrie (and to a lesser extent, Kemba) were on the team he got pushed further down the pecking order than he would have if Tatum wasn't here. Ultimately I don't think it stunted his development, but there was certainly risk that he would miss out on being the type of scorer that he is now.

So while he might be sacrificing a bit on his image and his chances of being "the man" in crunch time now, I think he's just in an awesome position now where he can maximize his ability. He sacrificed plenty along the way, though.

Moranis · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2023, 09:17:16 AM »

I don't think he has sacrificed anything. He gets his shots without the pressure. It is basically an ideal situation.

johnnygreen · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2023, 10:04:50 AM »

Couldn't Tatum make the same argument about sacrificing shots? He only takes 1.2 shots per game more than Jaylen. It was a good problem for Pierce, KG, and Allen, so I don't see it as an issue.

tonydelk · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2023, 10:22:22 AM »

I know tatum rarely misses games but the games he has missed and Jaylen played Jaylen's stats are not any better then with Tatum in the lineup. I known it's a small sample size but you'd think when JB would have the chance to be the guy and dominate he'd do it. The below doesn't tell me anything different. In today's NBA you need at least 2 stars to win. If you want to score 30ppg and get all the shots you need to go play for the Rockets but if the Rockets get Victor he's the guy. Not many situation where a team does not have a really good young player to compete with shots for. I think JB is in the best position he can be in the NBA and I hope he feels the same way and resigns.

Average
MPG - 34.3
PPG - 26.9
RBD - 6.9
AST - 3.2
STL - 1.3
BLK - 0.4
TO - 3.3

Goldstar88 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2023, 10:39:59 AM »

Quote from: tonydelk on February 21, 2023, 10:22:22 AM

I know tatum rarely misses games but the games he has missed and Jaylen played Jaylen's stats are not any better then with Tatum in the lineup. I known it's a small sample size but you'd think when JB would have the chance to be the guy and dominate he'd do it. The below doesn't tell me anything different. In today's NBA you need at least 2 stars to win. If you want to score 30ppg and get all the shots you need to go play for the Rockets but if the Rockets get Victor he's the guy. Not many situation where a team does not have a really good young player to compete with shots for. I think JB is in the best position he can be in the NBA and I hope he feels the same way and resigns.

Average
MPG - 34.3
PPG - 26.9
RBD - 6.9
AST - 3.2
STL - 1.3
BLK - 0.4
TO - 3.3

Tp for the above. I was just about to look that up.

Moranis · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2023, 10:55:50 AM »

Quote from: Goldstar88 on February 21, 2023, 10:39:59 AM

Quote from: tonydelk on February 21, 2023, 10:22:22 AM
I know tatum rarely misses games but the games he has missed and Jaylen played Jaylen's stats are not any better then with Tatum in the lineup. I known it's a small sample size but you'd think when JB would have the chance to be the guy and dominate he'd do it. The below doesn't tell me anything different. In today's NBA you need at least 2 stars to win. If you want to score 30ppg and get all the shots you need to go play for the Rockets but if the Rockets get Victor he's the guy. Not many situation where a team does not have a really good young player to compete with shots for. I think JB is in the best position he can be in the NBA and I hope he feels the same way and resigns.

Average
MPG - 34.3
PPG - 26.9
RBD - 6.9
AST - 3.2
STL - 1.3
BLK - 0.4
TO - 3.3

Tp for the above. I was just about to look that up.

whereas, Tatum does increase his scoring without Brown, so there may be something to Tatum actually sacrificing more than Brown.

jambr380 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2023, 10:57:19 AM »

It honestly sounds like a bit of a selfish attitude to have. There are plenty of guys on our team who are actually sacrificing - Brogdon, White, Smart, Al, TL as main/rotation players. Then you have a guy like Pritchard who is notably upset with his role.

Brown may have had to sacrifice along the way, but it looks to have been incredibly beneficial to his development. Now he has free rein to do whatever he wants on the court, while also not being as 'responsible' as Tatum when something goes wrong. It is the perfect situation for him, honestly, and one that he should appreciate. He's probably not going to become Houston Rockets Harden coming from OKC. It just doesn't usually work out that way.

Roy H. · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2023, 11:00:28 AM »

Quote from: Goldstar88 on February 21, 2023, 10:39:59 AM

Quote from: tonydelk on February 21, 2023, 10:22:22 AM
I know tatum rarely misses games but the games he has missed and Jaylen played Jaylen's stats are not any better then with Tatum in the lineup. I known it's a small sample size but you'd think when JB would have the chance to be the guy and dominate he'd do it. The below doesn't tell me anything different. In today's NBA you need at least 2 stars to win. If you want to score 30ppg and get all the shots you need to go play for the Rockets but if the Rockets get Victor he's the guy. Not many situation where a team does not have a really good young player to compete with shots for. I think JB is in the best position he can be in the NBA and I hope he feels the same way and resigns.

Average
MPG - 34.3
PPG - 26.9
RBD - 6.9
AST - 3.2
STL - 1.3
BLK - 0.4
TO - 3.3

Tp for the above. I was just about to look that up.

Over the past three seasons he's at:

30.1 points, 8.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.5 blocks, 3.7 turnovers, 23.6 FGA

He's had some amazing individual games, including 50p 11r; 42p 9r; 39p 11r.

Tatum's stats with no Brown:

30.7 points, 8.4 rebounds, 4.0 assists, 1.1 steals, 0.8 blocks, 2.9 turnovers, 22.5 FGA

Similarly, he's had some spectacular efforts, including 51p 9r; 44p 10r; 43p 10r.

Walker Wiggle · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2023, 11:21:57 AM »

I'm surprised to see people interpreting Brown's comments as anything but selfless and team-oriented. He is ABSOLUTELY making a sacrifice by sticking with Boston, and we should be thrilled that he's publicly coming out in favor of making that sacrifice to support his team's goals. Brown is a superb player and capable of being the #1 on a lot of teams, though probably not the #1 on a championship team. He gets that, and willingly is making the decision to be a solid teammate that's in the shadow of a budding all-time great in Tatum. Brown still gets plenty of notoriety and fanfare, as he should, but as long as Tatum is around, he will always be seen as a #2. Good for him for making peace with it.

Vermont Green · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2023, 11:44:32 AM »

I don't think Brown is sacrificing as much as he seems to think he is. He is taking 20+ shots per game. He is a really good player, and seems to be intelligent but I don't think he could step in and be a true #1 on another team. At least not another good team.

All players adjust their game for a given team or line up. I don't see that as a sacrifice but I guess you could look at it that way. It is not exactly black and white where it goes from "adjusting" to "sacrificing".

jpotter33 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2023, 12:12:38 PM »

Sure, he could probably be the number one guy on a lower to mid seed playoff team, but as good as he is he’s not the number on a highly competitive team.

JB is great at getting his own, and is one of the best individual players in the league given his mix of shooting and athleticism.

But I just don’t think he really makes his teammates better or can play with consistent pressure as the number one guy and as the defense’s number one focus. I just don’t see him handling the regular double teams that JT gets.

For that reason, I think he’s best suited as a 2 star behind a more dominant 1. And let’s not forget - for all the talk about sacrifice JB benefits greatly from playing with a JT-level guy, who takes a lot of attention away from him.

Author Topic: How much has JB sacrificed? (Read 4497 times)

How much has JB sacrificed?

Roy H.

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Who

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Who

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Who

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BitterJim

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Moranis

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johnnygreen

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tonydelk

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Goldstar88

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Moranis

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jambr380

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Roy H.

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Walker Wiggle

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Vermont Green

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