Indefensible Decisions By Brad Stevens

[moiso]

Wood is a solid offensive player.  Just how bad is his defense?

Not any worse than the combination of Vonleh / Kornet / Griffin.

Kornet actually looks like a plus defender.  Thought that last year watching him and he's showing again.

you may be ready for a new pair of glasses if that's what you're seeing

I don’t think he’s wrong tbh.  I might stop short of plus but I think he’s fine as a defender.  He’s 7’2” and active with solid court awareness. 

His big weakness as a player is that his hands suck.  Makes him a poor rebounder and really restricts what we can do with him on offense.  For those reasons I’d rather not have him in the regular rotation but as a stopgap he’s passable imho.

Understanding that this is a really small sample size, I'm sure there are stats on hid defense.  I'm not an advanced stats guy but curious what they show.

It's really too early to tell anything, but so far Kornet is fourth worst in FG% differential (i.e., opponents' FG% vs. their FG% when divided by a certain player.)

The guys Kornet defends generally shoot 50.3%; they're shooting 52.8% against Kornet.  Again, though, it's pretty meaningless at this point.  Our four worst defenders:  Jackson, Griffin, Tatum, Smart.  Our best?  Horford.

Kornet is also our worst defender within 5-feet of the basket, giving up 82.4% shooting, by far the worst on the team.  But, that's on very few shot attempts, so again, it's pretty irrelevant.  Meanwhile, players have been shooting very poorly against Kornet on the perimeter (18.2% FG% allowed on 20 to 24 feet shots).

I mean, we know why this is right?  Jumping in the key on three pointers is definitely working if you ask me .

It totally works. I saw Kornet doing it in the G league last year and thought it was a good move. I think it's a different look.

It works- it makes players shoot lower percentages.  But I've also seen compilations of Kornet jumping into the air while his guy goes to the rim, gets the offensive rebound and scores.

Yeah, I haven't seen any compilations, but it seems like if you are jumping in the air and your guy isn't the one taking the 3, then you are totally giving up positioning on a rebound. Given that Kornet is already a subpar rebounder - especially for his size - I'm not sure I buy the trade-off. Like, literally nobody else in the league does this. I can't imagine Luke Kornet is a revolutionary.

Scal explained this oddity a week or so ago in commentary…apparently due to his height when he jumps the shooter cannot see the rim because this hands cover it. I guess not being able to see the rim affects some shooters 

Robbing Peter to pay Paul, given it allows the opposing big man to get a very easy box out on Kornet for the offensive rebound

But that's also the case if he closed out to the shooter? If he did close out, another player would have to rotate down anyway to help on the boards. This way requires less effort and keeps him by the rim to at least help out.

The point being that closing out would likely be more effective.

Just making sure he boxes out his guy would also be more effective in some cases.

[sgrogan]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

[nickagneta]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

Disagree about the Jays minutes being affected by Timelord's injury. They were going to play big minutes this year because they are two of the top 15 players in the league and that's what top players do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

Maybe their numbers are a minute higher than they should be but given the tough slate of opponents, that should be expected with them being able to get those averages down to 35-36 MPG when they beat up poor competition and blow out teams during a softer part of the schedule.

Regarding Al, his numbers are affected by Timelord's absence but he's also taking off games in back to back situations and will also see reduced minutes during upcoming soft games. I'm not worried by Al giving this team 28-30 MPG this year if they need it. Horford is a pro's pro, takes good care of himself and will be fine.

I'm more concerned about the lack of defense and rebounding without Williams than I am the small amount of extra minutes three of our best players are putting up this far in a short season stacked with games versus high quality opponents.

[sgrogan]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

Disagree about the Jays minutes being affected by Timelord's injury. They were going to play big minutes this year because they are two of the top 15 players in the league and that's what top players do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

Maybe their numbers are a minute higher than they should be but given the tough slate of opponents, that should be expected with them being able to get those averages down to 35-36 MPG when they beat up poor competition and blow out teams during a softer part of the schedule.

Regarding Al, his numbers are affected by Timelord's absence but he's also taking off games in back to back situations and will also see reduced minutes during upcoming soft games. I'm not worried by Al giving this team 28-30 MPG this year if they need it. Horford is a pro's pro, takes good care of himself and will be fine.

I'm more concerned about the lack of defense and rebounding without Williams than I am the small amount of extra minutes three of our best players are putting up this far in a short season stacked with games versus high quality opponents.

Fair to a point, but I think Tatum is playing "up(PF)" a little more often than I would like. This causes Brown to play "up(SF)" a little more.

The hope for "softer games" is well taken. A couple easier one's, if Kornet, Vonleh, and/or Griffen can hold a lead. Will soften the load.

[nickagneta]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

Disagree about the Jays minutes being affected by Timelord's injury. They were going to play big minutes this year because they are two of the top 15 players in the league and that's what top players do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

Maybe their numbers are a minute higher than they should be but given the tough slate of opponents, that should be expected with them being able to get those averages down to 35-36 MPG when they beat up poor competition and blow out teams during a softer part of the schedule.

Regarding Al, his numbers are affected by Timelord's absence but he's also taking off games in back to back situations and will also see reduced minutes during upcoming soft games. I'm not worried by Al giving this team 28-30 MPG this year if they need it. Horford is a pro's pro, takes good care of himself and will be fine.

I'm more concerned about the lack of defense and rebounding without Williams than I am the small amount of extra minutes three of our best players are putting up this far in a short season stacked with games versus high quality opponents.

Fair to a point, but I think Tatum is playing "up(PF)" a little more often than I would like. This causes Brown to play "up(SF)" a little more.

The hope for "softer games" is well taken. A couple easier one's, if Kornet, Vonleh, and/or Griffen can hold a lead. Will soften the load.

Moranis brings up the playing "up" thing and I don't buy it. Both Jays are perimeter offensive players that drive the basket. Neither goes into the post to bang. All their major contact is on those drives and whether they play PF, SF or SG, that isn't changing.

On the defensive end, the Jays are switch heavy and don't solely guard larger opponents down low. Take a look at the matchups and minutes played when guarding the opponents for both on NBA.com. It's all over the place. Take last night for instance. Tatum defended Clarke a lot, but he's not a tough cover because he is like the Grizzlies least used offensive player meaning Tatum can conserve himself. Tatum spent a bunch of minutes guarding LaRavia, Bane, Morant and Tyus Jones. Not exactly players that will cause Tatum issues even though he is playing up. Brown played most of his minutes on defense guarding Dillon Brooks, Bane, LaRavia and Morant. Again, not players you worry about beating Jaylen up because he is playing SF rather than SG.

And this is a season long trend. You gotta pay attention to what they are actually doing on the court. It doesn't matter which of the 3 wing positions the Jays are designated as, they simply aren't playing "up" very often or to their physical detriment. Heck, the most concerning play last night that may have cause either guy issues were getting bodied on drives and Jah tackling Tatum at the knees. Not really things caused by what position either guy plays.

[sgrogan]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

Disagree about the Jays minutes being affected by Timelord's injury. They were going to play big minutes this year because they are two of the top 15 players in the league and that's what top players do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

Maybe their numbers are a minute higher than they should be but given the tough slate of opponents, that should be expected with them being able to get those averages down to 35-36 MPG when they beat up poor competition and blow out teams during a softer part of the schedule.

Regarding Al, his numbers are affected by Timelord's absence but he's also taking off games in back to back situations and will also see reduced minutes during upcoming soft games. I'm not worried by Al giving this team 28-30 MPG this year if they need it. Horford is a pro's pro, takes good care of himself and will be fine.

I'm more concerned about the lack of defense and rebounding without Williams than I am the small amount of extra minutes three of our best players are putting up this far in a short season stacked with games versus high quality opponents.

Fair to a point, but I think Tatum is playing "up(PF)" a little more often than I would like. This causes Brown to play "up(SF)" a little more.

The hope for "softer games" is well taken. A couple easier one's, if Kornet, Vonleh, and/or Griffen can hold a lead. Will soften the load.

Moranis brings up the playing "up" thing and I don't buy it. Both Jays are perimeter offensive players that drive the basket. Neither goes into the post to bang. All their major contact is on those drives and whether they play PF, SF or SG, that isn't changing.

On the defensive end, the Jays are switch heavy and don't solely guard larger opponents down low. Take a look at the matchups and minutes played when guarding the opponents for both on NBA.com. It's all over the place. Take last night for instance. Tatum defended Clarke a lot, but he's not a tough cover because he is like the Grizzlies least used offensive player meaning Tatum can conserve himself. Tatum spent a bunch of minutes guarding LaRavia, Bane, Morant and Tyus Jones. Not exactly players that will cause Tatum issues even though he is playing up. Brown played most of his minutes on defense guarding Dillon Brooks, Bane, LaRavia and Morant. Again, not players you worry about beating Jaylen up because he is playing SF rather than SG.

And this is a season long trend. You gotta pay attention to what they are actually doing on the court. It doesn't matter which of the 3 wing positions the Jays are designated as, they simply aren't playing "up" very often or to their physical detriment. Heck, the most concerning play last night that may have cause either guy issues were getting bodied on drives and Jah tackling Tatum at the knees. Not really things caused by what position either guy plays.

It's not so much the positional designation as who they are on the court with. We have been forced to go small because we are short a big.
Sample sizes are small but we play lineups like
Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Williams. Very switchy, not too taxing "playing up", but it's got to impact rebounding?

[Moranis]

With the recent loss of Primo, the Spurs could use another point guard sized dude that can shoot to develop with their young guys (see: Payton Pritchard). Their previously reported asking price Poeltl was 2 1sts, which is steep for an expiring player. But perhaps they would do Pritchard, 1 1st, and salary (Gallo would work? Kornet and Justin Jackson gets you pretty close I think).

Spotrac has Poeltl at $9.3M.  We have to send back at least about $7.5M.  Pritchard ($2.2M) and Gallinari ($6.4M) would cover it.  I would consider this unless the Celtics believe that Gallinari is going to be back for the end of the season/playoffs (I would rather have Gallinari in that case).  But I don't think Poeltl is going to make so much difference.  Once RWill is back, he is probably our 4th big.  A better 4th big than we have now for sure, but how much difference does the 4th big make?

One big difference would be not having to play Al big minutes.  That is going to be costly down the road.  Same to some extent for Rob when he returns.  Keeping him healthy is high priority,   Hate to lose PP - but that deal looks good to me.  BTW - has there been any suggestion that Gallinari could be back this season?

This type of trade looks easier because we have been healthy in the backcourt. Jaylen is already playing big minutes.
If/when Brogdon/Brown/Smart misses time Pritchard is going to have an opportunity.

That is of course true but the trade would be giving up some combo guard depth where we have excess for center depth where we have less depth and even more injury risk.  We can probably find another 3rd string combo guard easier than we can find depth at center.  That is the reason that this trade works for me.

I agree, and believe that the Brogdon trade was an (significant) upgrade overall. But we gave up big depth, thinking we could find a suitable replacement. We disagree how much Gallanari would have solved it, injury or not.

If we continue to make 2 steps forward 1 step back trades we are moving in the correct direction.

All we gave up from our big depth to get Brogdon was Theis.  And yes, I was fine with Gallinari replacing Theis.  Not a step back at all in my mind.  In fact just the opposite, a meaningful step forward.  Different players but overall, Gallinari is an improvement over Theis.

If the Celtics thought they could find a suitable replacement for Theis, they were right, they found Gallinari less than a week later if I remember the timeline correctly.  At that time, the prognosis for RWill was for him to be back to start the season. We were set.  Then Boom, Gallinari blows out his knee and they have to do more surgery on RWill''s knee.

So yeah, lose 2 of your top 4 bigs and your depth is going to take a hit.  Now we may need to trade some of the combo guard depth to address the depth at big.  It doesn't seem like they plan to do anything to address this right away.  We are winning.  And what they do to address this may change based on when RWill is actually back and how he looks.

There are videos of Gallanari saying if he's playing the 5 there are problems. He's averaged about 60 games a year over his career.
RWIII set a record last year for games played at 61. After missing the first playoff series, I believe for the rest of the playoffs he set a personal record for most games available in a row.
The need has been apparent for a long time.

Now, we are winning and playing great, offensively at least. We have two of the top seven players in mpg and Al is playing 31.5 mpg when he plays at 36 years old.

The only depth we lost in the Brogdon trade was Theis, but that's what we are talking about replacing.

I just don't think we can count on ignoring our players injury history, while still counting on last year's deadline deals to make us the top team in the second half.

Depth in the regular season is all about managing the team to be in the best position for the playoffs. Both seeding and health.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.  I started by saying we could trade Pritchard and Gallinari for Poeltl, to address our lack of depth at Center.  You then disagreed saying that you didn't want to trade Pritchard because if Brogdon or Smart get hurt, Pritchard would be useful, which is true.  Then you went back to arguing that we need to address our lack of depth at Center and PF because of injury risk, which is what I said in the first place.

That is exactly why I would be willing to include Pritchard in a trade for a serviceable big like Poeltl.  The risk with our bigs is higher than our risk with combo guards.  There is always risk.  Anyone can get hurt.  Some players have more injury history which leads to more risk.  Even with the acknowledged injury history of RWill and Gallinari, at the point we signed Gallinari, things looked pretty good for us.  Gallinari was just an injury risk, not out for the season and RWill was expected back for the start of the season.

It's more about agreeing with the OP. Although indefensible is too harsh.

The fact that RWIII and Gallanari are both hurt to begin the season is unlucky. The fact that they are both going to miss 1/4 of the season was very predictable. Including Theis in the Brogdon trade, although entirely necessary, doesn't change the fact it created a hole that will probably need to be addressed.

So far we have navigated this by playing some players big minutes. Maybe that bites us, maybe it doesn't. But if it does, it's not boom, some surprise.

You've described these issues, correctly, as first world problems. That's because the C's are a first world team.
With a little more foresight, especially "without spending constraints", maybe some of this could have been addressed.

Disagree about the Jays minutes being affected by Timelord's injury. They were going to play big minutes this year because they are two of the top 15 players in the league and that's what top players do.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_game.html#per_game_stats::mp_per_g

Maybe their numbers are a minute higher than they should be but given the tough slate of opponents, that should be expected with them being able to get those averages down to 35-36 MPG when they beat up poor competition and blow out teams during a softer part of the schedule.

Regarding Al, his numbers are affected by Timelord's absence but he's also taking off games in back to back situations and will also see reduced minutes during upcoming soft games. I'm not worried by Al giving this team 28-30 MPG this year if they need it. Horford is a pro's pro, takes good care of himself and will be fine.

I'm more concerned about the lack of defense and rebounding without Williams than I am the small amount of extra minutes three of our best players are putting up this far in a short season stacked with games versus high quality opponents.

Fair to a point, but I think Tatum is playing "up(PF)" a little more often than I would like. This causes Brown to play "up(SF)" a little more.

The hope for "softer games" is well taken. A couple easier one's, if Kornet, Vonleh, and/or Griffen can hold a lead. Will soften the load.

Moranis brings up the playing "up" thing and I don't buy it. Both Jays are perimeter offensive players that drive the basket. Neither goes into the post to bang. All their major contact is on those drives and whether they play PF, SF or SG, that isn't changing.

On the defensive end, the Jays are switch heavy and don't solely guard larger opponents down low. Take a look at the matchups and minutes played when guarding the opponents for both on NBA.com. It's all over the place. Take last night for instance. Tatum defended Clarke a lot, but he's not a tough cover because he is like the Grizzlies least used offensive player meaning Tatum can conserve himself. Tatum spent a bunch of minutes guarding LaRavia, Bane, Morant and Tyus Jones. Not exactly players that will cause Tatum issues even though he is playing up. Brown played most of his minutes on defense guarding Dillon Brooks, Bane, LaRavia and Morant. Again, not players you worry about beating Jaylen up because he is playing SF rather than SG.

And this is a season long trend. You gotta pay attention to what they are actually doing on the court. It doesn't matter which of the 3 wing positions the Jays are designated as, they simply aren't playing "up" very often or to their physical detriment. Heck, the most concerning play last night that may have cause either guy issues were getting bodied on drives and Jah tackling Tatum at the knees. Not really things caused by what position either guy plays.

It's not so much the positional designation as who they are on the court with. We have been forced to go small because we are short a big.
Sample sizes are small but we play lineups like
Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Williams. Very switchy, not too taxing "playing up", but it's got to impact rebounding?

It absolutely hurts both the defense and rebounding, both of which are off a fair amount from last year.  Obviously losing Rob, who is the best rebounder and arguably best defender hurts those numbers, but he is also a big guy that actually plays like a big guy.  Horford plays more like a wing, and no one other "big" is any good. 

And I absolutely believe that over the course of a long season, the playing "up" is going to be a detriment to Tatum and Brown. 

[Ed Monix]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

[bogg]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

That was intended to be Gallinari.

[pearljammer10]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

I mean we're 10-3.

[Ed Monix]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

That was intended to be Gallinari.

Gallinari was intended back up for Tatum, not Horford or Williams III

[nickagneta]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

That was intended to be Gallinari.

Gallinari was intended back up for Tatum, not Horford or Williams III

Nah. He was brought in to be Horford's or Timelord's backup at PF/C with Grant being the SF/PF, depending on who else was in the grouping. Most likely Grant would guard whoever was the better offensive player. But either way, Gallo was in no way brought in as a backup SF.

[Ed Monix]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

I mean we're 10-3.

Yes, true…but I’m not questioning the talent of the team, I’m questioning the depth of bigs.

We are only 13 games in and Williams III has yet to play and Horford has missed time and given his age if he’s pushed to play too many minutes, he’d be prone to a season ending injury.

The Celtics played a terrible Pistons team missing Cunningham, Bey, Noel and only scraped past because Mazzulla had to lean on Griffin and Kornet.

[bogg]

Gallinari was intended back up for Tatum, not Horford or Williams III

Gallo is (was?) Pretty solidly a 4/5 at this point in his career. His days as a big 3 were over even before the latest knee injury.

[Celtics2021]

I still can’t gather why Stevens did not anticipate the need for a legitimate back up big…when Horford needs rest and Williams III has had a long history of injuries.

Stevens has had multiple opportunities to address the issue, yet he’s seemingly passed on all of them.

Zach Collins was a free agent, who signed a 2 year cheap deal with the Spurs.

Jalen Smith was given away by the Suns for a rotation player and a second round pick.

Jock Landale was traded for cash consideration to the Suns.

—————————

The Celtics are currently relying on a washed up Blake Griffin and Luke Kornet, who in my opinion is severely under qualified for a contending team.

Zach Collins played a total of 38 games the last three seasons and is now out with a broken leg, so that would have solved exactly zero problems, real or perceived.

The Celtics traded for Daniel Theis at the deadline, who was a better fit last season than Jaylen Smith.  Maybe the Celtics could have gone with him instead of Gallinari in the off-season, but Gallo was the better fit at the time, and they couldn’t have gotten both.

I’m not sure how Jock Landale is in any way superior to Kornet or Vonleh, so that’s a very weird player to pine for.