Compare and contrast these center candidates

[Roy H.]

Yeah, if these are our choices, I'm sticking with Mfiondu and Noah!

You would rather have two underachieving tweeners that can’t stick on an NBA roster? Two guys that have been first round busts?

Neither contribute one thing this year. Vonleah probably doesn’t even make the team.

Yes, because the other options provided here are CRAP!  I'd use a different set of words, but I don't want to get an email from the admins!

Crap?

Whiteside: 8.2 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks in 17.9 minutes
Cousins: 9.0 points, 5.6 rebounds, 0.4 blocks in 15.0 minutes
Howard: 6.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 0.6 blocks in 16.2 minutes
Aldridge:  12.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.0 blocks in 22.3 minutes

What exactly are you looking for from your backup center?  I mean, the player we all know and love -- Timelord -- averaged 10.0 / 9.6 / 2.2 in 29.6 minutes. 

The available FAs might not be great fits for what we want, but none of them are "crap".  They're all pretty productive.

I think this bolded sentence points to exactly why traditional counting stats don’t make a fair argument.  We all know the contribution Williams made to this team far exceeds those numbers, whereas the contribution the above players made is less than those numbers, which is why they remain unsigned and will at best get the minimum.

Are they crap?  Relative to TimeLord, yes they are.

We're not comparing them to Timelord, though.  His defensive impact and switchability won't be replaced, even if his production can be.  Instead, we're comparing them to Vonleh and Kabengele.  Those two in no way are better options than any of the players being discussed here.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of Vonleh or Kabengele could be at least as good this season as one or more of the four players you mention.  Being 27 or 25 has its advantages.  In any case, the gap in quality between those four and the two guys the Celtics are trying out is a lot smaller than the those four and Rob.

Kabengele has averaged 2.7 points, 1.4 rebounds and 38.8% shooting in his (short) career.

Noah is a 4.9 points / 5.1 rebounds in 16.8 minutes guy for his career.  He's played on four teams in six seasons, including only playing 4 games last year (averaging 0.0 points and 0.3 rebounds).

I think your optimism is misguided.

You may underestimate my pessimism towards the players you’ve mentioned as optimism towards others.  That said, I will admit Vonleh is someone I’ve liked since the 2014 draft, and at the time would have been happy if the Celtics selected him at 6.  So I do harbor hope that he’s got something for us to unearth.

As for Kabengele, his career through age 24 is not much different than Whiteside’s, statistically speaking.  But I don’t consider him a real solution this year — there’s a reason he’s on a 2-way.

Why not both? At least for camp.
I suspect its because the vet min guys are looking for guaranteed money as well as playing time, maybe for 2 years, that wouldn't be subsidized by the league. But if money doesn't matter, whatsoever, then just cut them.

Yeah, it's easy enough for keep all of Kabengele  (2-way) / Vonleh / Kornet *and* add a veteran free agent.

[Celtics2021]

Yeah, if these are our choices, I'm sticking with Mfiondu and Noah!

You would rather have two underachieving tweeners that can’t stick on an NBA roster? Two guys that have been first round busts?

Neither contribute one thing this year. Vonleah probably doesn’t even make the team.

Yes, because the other options provided here are CRAP!  I'd use a different set of words, but I don't want to get an email from the admins!

Crap?

Whiteside: 8.2 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks in 17.9 minutes
Cousins: 9.0 points, 5.6 rebounds, 0.4 blocks in 15.0 minutes
Howard: 6.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 0.6 blocks in 16.2 minutes
Aldridge:  12.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.0 blocks in 22.3 minutes

What exactly are you looking for from your backup center?  I mean, the player we all know and love -- Timelord -- averaged 10.0 / 9.6 / 2.2 in 29.6 minutes. 

The available FAs might not be great fits for what we want, but none of them are "crap".  They're all pretty productive.

I think this bolded sentence points to exactly why traditional counting stats don’t make a fair argument.  We all know the contribution Williams made to this team far exceeds those numbers, whereas the contribution the above players made is less than those numbers, which is why they remain unsigned and will at best get the minimum.

Are they crap?  Relative to TimeLord, yes they are.

We're not comparing them to Timelord, though.  His defensive impact and switchability won't be replaced, even if his production can be.  Instead, we're comparing them to Vonleh and Kabengele.  Those two in no way are better options than any of the players being discussed here.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of Vonleh or Kabengele could be at least as good this season as one or more of the four players you mention.  Being 27 or 25 has its advantages.  In any case, the gap in quality between those four and the two guys the Celtics are trying out is a lot smaller than the those four and Rob.

Kabengele has averaged 2.7 points, 1.4 rebounds and 38.8% shooting in his (short) career.

Noah is a 4.9 points / 5.1 rebounds in 16.8 minutes guy for his career.  He's played on four teams in six seasons, including only playing 4 games last year (averaging 0.0 points and 0.3 rebounds).

I think your optimism is misguided.

You may underestimate my pessimism towards the players you’ve mentioned as optimism towards others.  That said, I will admit Vonleh is someone I’ve liked since the 2014 draft, and at the time would have been happy if the Celtics selected him at 6.  So I do harbor hope that he’s got something for us to unearth.

As for Kabengele, his career through age 24 is not much different than Whiteside’s, statistically speaking.  But I don’t consider him a real solution this year — there’s a reason he’s on a 2-way.

Why not both? At least for camp.
I suspect its because the vet min guys are looking for guaranteed money as well as playing time, maybe for 2 years, that wouldn't be subsidized by the league. But if money doesn't matter, whatsoever, then just cut them.

Vet min guys are primarily looking for playing time at this point.  They'd prefer the money of course, but they'll take a 1-year guaranteed minimum.  They want a guaranteed rotation spot.  (Cousins might have given up on that at this point, given how much he's bounced around after that ACL, but maybe not).

[Roy H.]

So, in addition to:

Dwight Howard (6'10"; 36 yo)
Hassan Whiteside (7'0"; 33 yo)
Lamarcus Aldridge (6'11"; 37 yo)
Damarcus Cousins (6'10"; 32 yo)

... there's a chance that Derrick Favors (6'9", 31 yo) gets bought out.  I've been hoping for this for awhile.  I don't know that he's the best of the guys listed above, but I think he might be the guy who would fit most seamlessly into our locker room.  Plus, he's probably the most switchable defender of the bunch.

[Kernewek]

Looks like it's Blake:
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1575868141493579776?s=46&t=2fvXx8uRfQfOh2GoEX508Q

[Roy H.]

Looks like it's Blake:
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1575868141493579776?s=46&t=2fvXx8uRfQfOh2GoEX508Q

I mentioned in another thread, I'm hoping he's our Gallo replacement rather than somebody we see as a viable center.  I'd still love Favors.

[Roy H.]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC:

“I realize I’m not the franchise player I was when I was younger. I’ve accepted that. I understand this business. I understand how this cycle goes. I’m not ignorant to it. So whatever role is given to me, I will do it willingly and to the best of my ability,” Cousins told Yahoo Sports. “Obviously, me being a competitor, I always want to reach for the stars, but I’m going to do what’s asked of me. And if it’s me starting, if it’s me coming off the bench, or if it’s me having to be at the end of the bench cheering the next guy on, I’ll do it. Whatever it takes. I’m willing to do whatever is needed to win.”

[gouki88]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC.

I do love the hilarity of him not realising that his ability to help a team win directly correlates with his time on bench

[Celtics2021]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC.

I hope we can finally put the Dwight-Howard-has-reformed line of thinking to bed now.

[Donoghus]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC.

I hope we can finally put the Dwight-Howard-has-reformed line of thinking to bed now.

Yeah, Celtics don't need that in their locker room.

[Roy H.]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC.

I hope we can finally put the Dwight-Howard-has-reformed line of thinking to bed now.

Yeah, Celtics don't need that in their locker room.

Yep.  I've never liked this guy, ever. 

[Vermont Green]

I have no interest in either Howard or Cousins.  I think the Celtics sent a loud and clear message by bringing in Griffin that character and leadership are important.  They are not going to bring in a clown just because maybe they will play better than Vonleh.  Cousins is saying all the right things, but I can understand the reluctance to bringing him in.  Lamarcus Aldridge has the character, I just don't think he has anything left in his legs.  I think Favors is fine on the character and leadership side of things, and he can still play, but he is not available so it isn't an option.  If he is released, I am interested.

That leaves Whiteside.  He played pretty well for Utah last season.  I don't know if teams are making offers but he doesn't want them or if he has no offers and is still waiting.  It is a surprise to me.  I am not sure how bad his character/locker room issues are.  It seems that if at this point, he is not signed, he is probably not going to start the season on any team, including the Celtics.

[Goldstar88]

This is probably why Howard isn't signed:

Well, I want to play. Like I enjoy the game. I want to play, but at the same time, there are like no teams who will really allow me to play. That’s how I’ve been feeling from the last situation with the Lakers. You know, I feel like I did enough to help them win a championship to really deserve a spot on the team and a chance to start and get big minutes. It didn’t happen, so after that, I was like, ‘Man, I don’t want to have to bust my ass for another whole summer, training three-a-days, going crazy dieting to do all of this sh*t and then get back to a team and sit on the bench,'” Howard said. “I can really help somebody win and still play. Like, I ain’t lost a beat. It’s just that I sit on the bench, so people don’t see that. Team’s don’t see that, you know and it’s been like, ‘[dang], do I want to just call it quits and do some other stuff? Or go back at it and show people I still got it…’ But Hell, I want to go out on top, for real. Because I’ve still got it. I still can hoop.

Contrast that with DMC:

“I realize I’m not the franchise player I was when I was younger. I’ve accepted that. I understand this business. I understand how this cycle goes. I’m not ignorant to it. So whatever role is given to me, I will do it willingly and to the best of my ability,” Cousins told Yahoo Sports. “Obviously, me being a competitor, I always want to reach for the stars, but I’m going to do what’s asked of me. And if it’s me starting, if it’s me coming off the bench, or if it’s me having to be at the end of the bench cheering the next guy on, I’ll do it. Whatever it takes. I’m willing to do whatever is needed to win.”

I’d take Cousins over Howard for sure, however, I do find it concerning that the Nuggets preferred to go with Deandre Jordan at Center over DMC for this coming season. That says a lot.

[Moranis]

I can't get a real read on that Howard quote without more context.  Like what was he asked, was that pulled from a longer statement, etc.  Depending on the overall context that good be a giant nothing burger or a real cause for concern.

[Vermont Green]

I can't get a real read on that Howard quote without more context.  Like what was he asked, was that pulled from a longer statement, etc.  Depending on the overall context that good be a giant nothing burger or a real cause for concern.

Dwight Howard has earned $245M in his career, plus endorsements.  I don't judge him for not wanting to sit on the bench.  He may be a bit delusional if he thinks he is still good enough to play "big minutes" but even that aside, I can understand a guy like him not wanting to be the towel waver.  I think Dwight Howard is a clown, but not because he doesn't want to be a towel waver.

This just emphasizes why the Celtics have no reason to go anywhere near him as a FA, even if he wasn't a clown.

[Moranis]

I can't get a real read on that Howard quote without more context.  Like what was he asked, was that pulled from a longer statement, etc.  Depending on the overall context that good be a giant nothing burger or a real cause for concern.

Dwight Howard has earned $245M in his career, plus endorsements.  I don't judge him for not wanting to sit on the bench.  He may be a bit delusional if he thinks he is still good enough to play "big minutes" but even that aside, I can understand a guy like him not wanting to be the towel waver.  I think Dwight Howard is a clown, but not because he doesn't want to be a towel waver.

This just emphasizes why the Celtics have no reason to go anywhere near him as a FA, even if he wasn't a clown.

I'd need the context on the quote to be able to say that.