Payton
Jordan
Kawhi
KG
Russell

Vs.

Steph
Klay (for spacing purposes)
Durant
Bird
Magic (he famously won his first Finals MVP playing at Center)

Ultimate offense perfectly suited to thrive in the pace-and-space era vs. ultimate defense. Which team wins?

Wade doesn't belong in this conversation forks.   LeBron would choke at some point and Jordan would kick his butt.

way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.

I agree that those are more balanced teams, although if you're going for a top ten of all-time vibe, Kobe doesn't belong anywhere in there.

But, KG was going with a "best ever according to people born in 1990" approach.  If the "top five" from those fans is considered:

Shaq
Lebron
Kobe
Jordan
Curry

Then what team beats that team?

Off the top of my head, I went with:

Jokic
Giannis
Bird
Durant
Magic

That team is pretty much unguardable.  I think you could put Duncan or Malone at PF, but I like Giannis' defensive mobility. 

Quote from: Roy H. on August 08, 2022, 07:39:49 AM

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 07:32:16 AM

way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.

I agree that those are more balanced teams, although if you're going for a top ten of all-time vibe, Kobe doesn't belong anywhere in there.

But, KG was going with a "best ever according to people born in 1990" approach.  If the "top five" from those fans is considered:

Shaq
Lebron
Kobe
Jordan
Curry

Then what team beats that team?

Off the top of my head, I went with:

Jokic
Giannis
Bird
Durant
Magic

That team is pretty much unguardable.  I think you could put Duncan or Malone at PF, but I like Giannis' defensive mobility.

I just don't like having that many players out of position.  I just don't think it makes sense.  And yes, Kobe isn't a top 10 player all time, but he is probably the 2nd best SG of all time.  I tried to make my teams either the 1st or 2nd best player at their position.  Mailman isn't a top 10 player either, but is likely the 2nd best PF behind Duncan (at least for now, Giannis will most likely eventually pass him and perhaps Duncan).  Too many centers in the top 10 all time to do the teams well using only top 10 players.

In terms of position, Lebron and Kobe both definitely played a position "up" a lot.  I think it's credible to play Lebron at PF and Kobe at SF if you're talking about a two team league.

With Durant, it's funny.  He played pretty much exclusively at SG his rookie season, then moved to SF, then moved to PF.  It's a similar progression with Giannis.  If they had stayed at their original positions -- Durant at SG, Giannis at PG -- I think they would have been dominant.

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 07:32:16 AM

way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.

More and more teams play positionless basketball. Positions aren't as clear as they used to be. In fact, I would argue you are the one using players out of position.

• Duncan would have been a Center in today's game. Only reason he was playing at PF early in his career is cause he had to share the floor with Robinson.
• I strongly believe Magic would have been either a PF or a Point Center in today's game, sort of like a rich man's Jokic. It is called the pace-and-space era for a reason. Teams look to run as much as possible. Magic was very mobile for his size, but modern-day guards are way more explosive. The best way to maintain a fast pace on offense with Magic running the point would have been to surround him with guards and (s)wings and use him as a big man on defense. After all, he could never stay in front of guards on defense.
• LeBron is at his best when playing at small ball PF in today's game with Davis at small ball Center.
• Likewise, Bird would have been at his best at PF in the modern game. I would argue he would have been better suited at PF even in the 80s. Only reason he was playing at SF was he had to share the floor with McHale and Parish.
• I bet Karl Malone would have been a Center. He was certainly strong enough to defend opposing Centers. Chances are he would have been even more lethal as a roll man in the modern game.

Ben Simmons is a PG.  He is basically a lesser version of Magic.  I just don't buy the premise that someone that handled and distributed like Magic would have been anything other than a PG. 

And yet there Boston was with 6'8" Tatum at SF and 6'6" Brown at SG basically all season long.  Teams don't play position less ball.  It is a fallacy.  Just because the Warriors got away with at times a smaller lineup (though Durant is a 7 footer and Klay has good size at 6'6"), doesn't mean that is how the game is played by most teams.  It isn't.  And even the Warriors start an actual center in Looney (and it will be 7 foot Wiseman this year). 

Look at the Nuggets this year.  6'11" Jokic, 6'10" Porter, 6'8" Gordon along with a 6'3" pg in Murray and probably 6'5" KCP at SG.  They are huge.  The Sixers have good size.  The Warriors are big everywhere except Draymond.  Phoenix and Denver are big. 

Just because the game has drifted more to the 3 point shot, doesn't mean that size and positions don't matter.  They do.  Kobe would be a SG guard today, because that is what his skill set was always suited for (he'd be a slightly bigger Klay Thompson).  Lebron is a SF at his peak.  He plays more PF today because he has lost a step and can't keep up with most wings at the same level. 

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 09:41:24 AM

Quote from: Jvalin on August 08, 2022, 08:56:58 AM

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 07:32:16 AM

way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.

More and more teams play positionless basketball. Positions aren't as clear as they used to be. In fact, I would argue you are the one using players out of position.

• Duncan would have been a Center in today's game. Only reason he was playing at PF early in his career is cause he had to share the floor with Robinson.
• I strongly believe Magic would have been either a PF or a Point Center in today's game, sort of like a rich man's Jokic. It is called the pace-and-space era for a reason. Teams look to run as much as possible. Magic was very mobile for his size, but modern-day guards are way more explosive. The best way to maintain a fast pace on offense with Magic running the point would have been to surround him with guards and (s)wings and use him as a big man on defense. After all, he could never stay in front of guards on defense.
• LeBron is at his best when playing at small ball PF in today's game with Davis at small ball Center.
• Likewise, Bird would have been at his best at PF in the modern game. I would argue he would have been better suited at PF even in the 80s. Only reason he was playing at SF was he had to share the floor with McHale and Parish.
• I bet Karl Malone would have been a Center. He was certainly strong enough to defend opposing Centers. Chances are he would have been even more lethal as a roll man in the modern game.

Ben Simmons is a PG.  He is basically a lesser version of Magic.  I just don't buy the premise that someone that handled and distributed like Magic would have been anything other than a PG. 

And yet there Boston was with 6'8" Tatum at SF and 6'6" Brown at SG basically all season long.  Teams don't play position less ball.  It is a fallacy.  Just because the Warriors got away with at times a smaller lineup (though Durant is a 7 footer and Klay has good size at 6'6"), doesn't mean that is how the game is played by most teams.  It isn't.  And even the Warriors start an actual center in Looney (and it will be 7 foot Wiseman this year). 

Look at the Nuggets this year.  6'11" Jokic, 6'10" Porter, 6'8" Gordon along with a 6'3" pg in Murray and probably 6'5" KCP at SG.  They are huge.  The Sixers have good size.  The Warriors are big everywhere except Draymond.  Phoenix and Denver are big. 

Just because the game has drifted more to the 3 point shot, doesn't mean that size and positions don't matter.  They do.  Kobe would be a SG guard today, because that is what his skill set was always suited for (he'd be a slightly bigger Klay Thompson).  Lebron is a SF at his peak.  He plays more PF today because he has lost a step and can't keep up with most wings at the same level.

No, he isn't. I would argue it's rather obvious at this point. He was forced to play on the ball in Philly cause they couldn't use him as a screener+roller alongside a dominant low post scorer in Embiid. The way I see it, Simmons is a rich man's Bam Adebayo. He's a better ball handler, passer and perimeter defender. Bam is a better rim protector, although not by much.

We disagree on pretty much everything you said. Plenty of teams run a switch-heavy defensive scheme which means they use oversized guards and undersized bigs (look no further than the C's). KCP at 6'5'' is a terrific switchable wing. A 7-foot+ behemoth is unplayable unless he's an elite-level talent. Looney is 6' 8'' w/o shoes. In what universe is he an ''actual Center''? Regarding Wiseman, he's a defensive liability. More often than not, being a 7-footer is a disadvantage in the modern game, simply because you'll get run off the court.

LeBron was playing primarily at PF in 2013 and 2014. This was before the emergence of the pace-and-space era. He was definitely at his prime at the time.

and yet the average height in the league has been 6'6" or 6'7" every year since 1963.  The big guys are all still in the league, they just have shifted outside more. 

Quote from: Jvalin on August 08, 2022, 10:51:29 AM

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 09:41:24 AM

Quote from: Jvalin on August 08, 2022, 08:56:58 AM

Quote from: Moranis on August 08, 2022, 07:32:16 AM

way too many players out of position on those teams.  I think you'd need to do it with actual positions

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Mailman, Kareem

vs.

Curry, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Wilt

Those make way more sense as teams.  Plenty of other players you could swap in or out, like Stockton for Curry, Barkley or KG for Mailman, West for Kobe, or Hakeem, Shaq, or Bill for Wilt.

More and more teams play positionless basketball. Positions aren't as clear as they used to be. In fact, I would argue you are the one using players out of position.

• Duncan would have been a Center in today's game. Only reason he was playing at PF early in his career is cause he had to share the floor with Robinson.
• I strongly believe Magic would have been either a PF or a Point Center in today's game, sort of like a rich man's Jokic. It is called the pace-and-space era for a reason. Teams look to run as much as possible. Magic was very mobile for his size, but modern-day guards are way more explosive. The best way to maintain a fast pace on offense with Magic running the point would have been to surround him with guards and (s)wings and use him as a big man on defense. After all, he could never stay in front of guards on defense.
• LeBron is at his best when playing at small ball PF in today's game with Davis at small ball Center.
• Likewise, Bird would have been at his best at PF in the modern game. I would argue he would have been better suited at PF even in the 80s. Only reason he was playing at SF was he had to share the floor with McHale and Parish.
• I bet Karl Malone would have been a Center. He was certainly strong enough to defend opposing Centers. Chances are he would have been even more lethal as a roll man in the modern game.

Ben Simmons is a PG.  He is basically a lesser version of Magic.  I just don't buy the premise that someone that handled and distributed like Magic would have been anything other than a PG. 

And yet there Boston was with 6'8" Tatum at SF and 6'6" Brown at SG basically all season long.  Teams don't play position less ball.  It is a fallacy.  Just because the Warriors got away with at times a smaller lineup (though Durant is a 7 footer and Klay has good size at 6'6"), doesn't mean that is how the game is played by most teams.  It isn't.  And even the Warriors start an actual center in Looney (and it will be 7 foot Wiseman this year). 

Look at the Nuggets this year.  6'11" Jokic, 6'10" Porter, 6'8" Gordon along with a 6'3" pg in Murray and probably 6'5" KCP at SG.  They are huge.  The Sixers have good size.  The Warriors are big everywhere except Draymond.  Phoenix and Denver are big. 

Just because the game has drifted more to the 3 point shot, doesn't mean that size and positions don't matter.  They do.  Kobe would be a SG guard today, because that is what his skill set was always suited for (he'd be a slightly bigger Klay Thompson).  Lebron is a SF at his peak.  He plays more PF today because he has lost a step and can't keep up with most wings at the same level.

No, he isn't. I would argue it's rather obvious at this point. He was forced to play on the ball in Philly cause they couldn't use him as a screener+roller alongside a dominant low post scorer in Embiid. The way I see it, Simmons is a rich man's Bam Adebayo. He's a better ball handler, passer and perimeter defender. Bam is a better rim protector, although not by much.

We disagree on pretty much everything you said. Plenty of teams run a switch-heavy defensive scheme which means they use oversized guards and undersized bigs (look no further than the C's). KCP at 6'5'' is a terrific switchable wing. A 7-foot+ behemoth is unplayable unless he's an elite-level talent. Looney is 6' 8'' w/o shoes. In what universe is he an ''actual Center''? Regarding Wiseman, he's a defensive liability. More often than not, being a 7-footer is a disadvantage in the modern game, simply because you'll get run off the court.

LeBron was playing primarily at PF in 2013 and 2014. This was before the emergence of the pace-and-space era. He was definitely at his prime at the time.

and yet the average height in the league has been 6'6" or 6'7" every year since 1963.  The big guys are all still in the league, they just have shifted outside more.

Average height is gradually declining since the 80s with a slight fluctuation in the early 00s.



Again, switching defense requires oversized guards and undersized bigs. Check the graphs yourself.

The guards are getting bigger since the emergence of the pace-and-space era.


The bigs are getting smaller.