If you had to win an NBA game....

[blink]

In a world where we could clone humans.

I think Tatum and Brown would school Tatum and Williams.

Missing the point here -- lemme rephrase:

Celtics are tied 3-3 with, say, the Bucks in the EC finals. Every player on the both teams are healthy.

Last minute, one Cs player comes down with COVID (i'm going to just remove Tatum no one is choosing Brown over him).

Which one would you rather be out? Would you rather have Williams or Brown with Tatum in a must win game?

The answer is Brown, and it isn't even close.

[nickagneta]

You can get 80-90% of what Williams brings in a normal replacement center. 

A ridiculous statement, in my opinion.

I agree. What replacement centres out there can give strong rebounding & defence (as opposed to elite), passable playmaking (as opposed to decent) and elite efficiency (as opposed to all-time)?

Center is the least important position in the game. The last 3 times the Celtics got to the ECFs their starting centers for those years were Amir Johnson, Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis. Clearly, having success with this group with centers that are 80-90% of Timelord...or less.... is not only quite possible, but rather quite probable given recent history of Celtics centers.

[gouki88]

You can get 80-90% of what Williams brings in a normal replacement center. 

A ridiculous statement, in my opinion.

I agree. What replacement centres out there can give strong rebounding & defence (as opposed to elite), passable playmaking (as opposed to decent) and elite efficiency (as opposed to all-time)?

Center is the least important position in the game. The last 3 times the Celtics got to the ECFs their starting centers for those years were Amir Johnson, Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis. Clearly, having success with this group with centers that are 80-90% of Timelord...or less.... is not only quite possible, but rather quite probable given recent history of Celtics centers.

It is absurd to argue that Amir Johnson, Baynes or Theis were ever 80-90% of what Timelord is now, quite frankly. Having success with that is a completely different point, but none of those guys - and none of the "normal replacement centres" readily available in the league - can replicate 80-90% of what Timelord does.

[Celtics2021]

You can get 80-90% of what Williams brings in a normal replacement center. 

A ridiculous statement, in my opinion.

I agree. What replacement centres out there can give strong rebounding & defence (as opposed to elite), passable playmaking (as opposed to decent) and elite efficiency (as opposed to all-time)?

Center is the least important position in the game. The last 3 times the Celtics got to the ECFs their starting centers for those years were Amir Johnson, Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis. Clearly, having success with this group with centers that are 80-90% of Timelord...or less.... is not only quite possible, but rather quite probable given recent history of Celtics centers.

It is absurd to argue that Amir Johnson, Baynes or Theis were ever 80-90% of what Timelord is now, quite frankly. Having success with that is a completely different point, but none of those guys - and none of the "normal replacement centres" readily available in the league - can replicate 80-90% of what Timelord does.

I think you missed the key words in his post “or less”.  He was saying that even if you were charitable to those three, and called them 80-90% of TL, they were sufficient.  And no one thinks they were even that good.

[BASS_THUMPER]

3's all day.....


*sippin*

[smokeablount]

You can get 80-90% of what Williams brings in a normal replacement center. 

A ridiculous statement, in my opinion.

I agree. What replacement centres out there can give strong rebounding & defence (as opposed to elite), passable playmaking (as opposed to decent) and elite efficiency (as opposed to all-time)?

Center is the least important position in the game. The last 3 times the Celtics got to the ECFs their starting centers for those years were Amir Johnson, Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis. Clearly, having success with this group with centers that are 80-90% of Timelord...or less.... is not only quite possible, but rather quite probable given recent history of Celtics centers.

It is absurd to argue that Amir Johnson, Baynes or Theis were ever 80-90% of what Timelord is now, quite frankly. Having success with that is a completely different point, but none of those guys - and none of the "normal replacement centres" readily available in the league - can replicate 80-90% of what Timelord does.

I think you missed the key words in his post “or less”.  He was saying that even if you were charitable to those three, and called them 80-90% of TL, they were sufficient.  And no one thinks they were even that good.

The East wasn’t that good either. You aren’t sniffing the conference semis, let alone the ECF, with either of those 3 centers in today’s Eastern Conference.

Having said that, I agree with choosing Tatum and Brown.

[Moranis]

You can get 80-90% of what Williams brings in a normal replacement center. 

A ridiculous statement, in my opinion.

I agree. What replacement centres out there can give strong rebounding & defence (as opposed to elite), passable playmaking (as opposed to decent) and elite efficiency (as opposed to all-time)?

Center is the least important position in the game. The last 3 times the Celtics got to the ECFs their starting centers for those years were Amir Johnson, Aron Baynes and Daniel Theis. Clearly, having success with this group with centers that are 80-90% of Timelord...or less.... is not only quite possible, but rather quite probable given recent history of Celtics centers.

It is absurd to argue that Amir Johnson, Baynes or Theis were ever 80-90% of what Timelord is now, quite frankly. Having success with that is a completely different point, but none of those guys - and none of the "normal replacement centres" readily available in the league - can replicate 80-90% of what Timelord does.

I think you missed the key words in his post “or less”.  He was saying that even if you were charitable to those three, and called them 80-90% of TL, they were sufficient.  And no one thinks they were even that good.

The East wasn’t that good either. You aren’t sniffing the conference semis, let alone the ECF, with either of those 3 centers in today’s Eastern Conference.

Having said that, I agree with choosing Tatum and Brown.

Milwaukee's starting center is way past his prime Serge Ibaka and the Nets are starting Blake Griffin who is rightfully on a minimum.  Toronto doesn't even have a center on its roster.  Out west many teams also have crappy centers.

[PAOBoston]

This is crazy. It’s Tatum and Brown. I have no idea why anyone would choose any other option.

[Vermont Green]

It is interesting debate.  I don't think everyone is looking at it the same way.  Break it down, our starters right now are:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Williams

If you take out Brown, our starters are:

Smart
White
Tatum
Horford
Williams

If you take out Williams:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Theis

Are you supposed to consider how good the replacement is when asking who is more important?  In this case, Theis has already been a starter on an ECF team so it is hard to say he isn't sufficient even if less than Williams.  Even a journeyman player like Theis can probably provide comparable defense and rebounding to Williams (albeit less rim protection but better perimeter defense).  White is a pretty good back up for Brown but I don't think he can be the #2 on a ECF team as Brown would be.

Theis and Williams are different players.  Theis does some things better in fact.  Better mid range, better perimeter defense.  Williams more blocks, more dunks.  I feel that recognizing the fact that a journeyman level player like Theis can more or less replace Williams shows Williams is far less important than Brown.

[ozgod]

It is interesting debate.  I don't think everyone is looking at it the same way.  Break it down, our starters right now are:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Williams

If you take out Brown, our starters are:

Smart
White
Tatum
Horford
Williams

If you take out Williams:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Theis

Are you supposed to consider how good the replacement is when asking who is more important?  In this case, Theis has already been a starter on an ECF team so it is hard to say he isn't sufficient even if less than Williams.  Even a journeyman player like Theis can probably provide comparable defense and rebounding to Williams (albeit less rim protection but better perimeter defense).  White is a pretty good back up for Brown but I don't think he can be the #2 on a ECF team as Brown would be.

Theis and Williams are different players.  Theis does some things better in fact.  Better mid range, better perimeter defense.  Williams more blocks, more dunks.  I feel that recognizing the fact that a journeyman level player like Theis can more or less replace Williams shows Williams is far less important than Brown.

Yes, it's difficult trying to just compare the 3 players because you have to consider the replacements, and also consider how the impact of removing either Tatum or Brown will affect whoever remains. Having two of them on the court makes it difficult to keep throwing double teams at one of them. It would probably impact the way they are defended, especially if the player they are replacing is not the same offensive threat.

The way I interpreted this thread was that it was trying to gauge which of the three players impacted winning the most, in light of Zach Lowe's article saying that Timelord has transformed the Cs defense because of the way that Ime is deploying him away from defending the main screen setter and allowing him to play a bigger role as the main helper on dribble penetration. Because Timelord doesn't have the same profile as the other two, but the way that Ime has used him has really impacted winning in the past couple of months. Which is why despite his injury history and sparse playing time Brad gave him a $48k 4 year contract. They know how much he impacts winning.

But again I see his role as more of a supplementary role, in that he makes everyone better, whether it's defensively, offensively as a rim roller as well as as a rebounder and passer finding cutters. Based on the stats and the eye test I still feel the two players we have that impact winning the most are Tatum and Brown, and they both make each other better. If you look at the net rating of our most used 2 man lineups, Tatum and Brown have the highest. That said, Timelord is right up there with either of them:



When it comes to 3 man lineups they are right at at the top of our most used lineups (I won't post yet another screenshot but will link the query I'm using if people want to mess around with it):

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738

So my conclusion is that I would want all 3 of them, because the 3 of them together create a whole that is worth a lot more than the sum of the parts.

[Hoopvortex]

I might go TL if either Tatum or Brown were better handing the designed defenses played against them. Teams can blitz either guy and neutralize one almost every time down. Kind of need both right now to limit the effect and put defense into a disadvantage.

Probably the best argument I've seen for Tatum + Brown at this point.

I’d frame it differently, but I’d agree that there’s a good argument there.

Basically, if you have one potent scorer, it’s easier for the defense to load up on him than if you have two. And the more single coverage you can get, the more pressure on the defense to defend one-on-one - so the more often one of the two will be able to exploit a weaker defender. (This is one advantage of having two star wings.)

I didn’t vote in the poll; just too many variables with teammates and matchups.

Rob is definitely a big plus on offense. You can run some offense through him up top where he’s not clogging the lane; he’s one of the biggest lob threats in the league, so the defense can’t leave him; and he’s an outstanding offensive rebounder.