Author Topic: A Win/Wi ln trade (blow it up/trial new core) (Read 3518 times)

CBS_Take a Report · « **on:** December 27, 2021, 11:28:33 PM »

Washington trades: Bradley Beal (expiring contract)

Boston trades: Jaylen Brown, Juancho Hernangomez

We trial Tatum with his boy and resign if chemistry is there or rebuild fully if it isn’t and let Beal walk and move to build around Tatum or trade him pending on how accelerated we can restart our timeline.

PhoSita · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2021, 03:54:13 AM »

Trade Jaylen, who is under contract for several more seasons, for a "trial" of Beal? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I also doubt Beal is interested in going from one middle of the road team to another.

If you're trading Jaylen, you need to get back assets that can help you replenish the pool of talent on this team long term. In other words -- a haul of draft picks and/or young players.

LilRip · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2021, 05:20:52 AM »

How would a Beal-Tatum pairing work differently vs a Brown-Tatum pairing?

boscel33 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2021, 07:29:48 AM »

We're talking about blowing up a core that is averaging 48+ PPG? Once JB qualifies, that puts him about 15 in the NBA in scoring while JT sits at 8. You should not be blowing this up but getting that third piece. Beal is in the same space as JB in scoring, the change isn't worth the risk.

With a new coach, this was technically going to need to be a bridge year. While the jury is still out on Ime, there are growing pains that are happening. The team needs to push through, but there were indications of a fracture last night when Al said that the team is "searching" and "has to look in the mirror" and Brown responded "Searching and looking in the mirror? Nah. No comment."

It's time for a true leader to develop on the team, and truthfully, I think it's JB!

Roy H. · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM »

The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

boscel33 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2021, 09:26:03 AM »

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM

The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

Did they really neglect it?

OK, Romeo was not a shooter, but he was a scorer. Then, although I wanted a PG, they took Nesmith who was one of the best shooters in the draft, allegedly. I don't think they ignored it, I think they missed!

Roy H. · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2021, 09:27:50 AM »

Quote from: boscel33 on December 28, 2021, 09:26:03 AM

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

Did they really neglect it?

OK, Romeo was not a shooter, but he was a scorer. Then, although I wanted a PG, they took Nesmith who was one of the best shooters in the draft, allegedly. I don't think they ignored it, I think they missed!

They ignored it this past off-season.

nickagneta · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2021, 09:57:17 AM »

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM

The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

I agree.

The Jays need a solid, pass first, veteran floor general and some better shooting guards but really three point shooting from anywhere, including that vet PG. We have seen the positive effect that Grant Williams and Josh Richardson have recently when the team is healthy and they give them 6-7 shots a game. It takes the team to a different level.

A caveat, JRich hasn't been anything but an average 3 point shooter through his career, so his distance shooting this year is probably an outlier. Given that, replacing him for a better 3 point shooter needs to be done.

If Indy blows it up, could Malcolm Brogdon be a target? He isn't shooting well this year, but he has mostly been a great shooter, once having a 50/40/90 year. Big PG that can create for others and can hit threes sounds perfect to me.

Could Horford, Hernangomez, Langford, the rights to Yam Mader, $3 million and 2 firsts get the Celtics Myles Turner and Malcolm Brogdon this off-season?

The Pacers clear $85 million in long term salary debt, clear $26 million in salary applied to the cap, get hometown prospect Langford, a promising Euro stashed PG in Yam, $3 million to apply to a Horford buyout and the C's 2022(a weak draft) and 2024 first rounders.

The Celtics get a stretch center that can start and is more reliable than Timelord. That sends Timelord to the bench into a better 20-24 minutes bench center role until the Celtics see him become someone that isn't out every other game due to injuries. It also gives them that vet PG that is a good defender that can run the offense and shoot the ball.

This could then open up Boston to move Richardson and Nesmith and a protected first for Harrison Barnes. Start Barnes and move Smart to a more natural bench roll:

Brogdon/Pritchard
Brown/Smart
Tatum
Barnes/G Williams
Turner/Timelord

Fill in the non-rotation spots with Begarin, an MLE veteran, Sam Hauser and some veteran min guys.

CBS_Take a Report · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2021, 10:38:32 AM »

Quote from: nickagneta on December 28, 2021, 09:57:17 AM

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.
I agree.

The Jays need a solid, pass first, veteran floor general and some better shooting guards but really three point shooting from anywhere, including that vet PG. We have seen the positive effect that Grant Williams and Josh Richardson have recently when the team is healthy and they give them 6-7 shots a game. It takes the team to a different level.

A caveat, JRich hasn't been anything but an average 3 point shooter through his career, so his distance shooting this year is probably an outlier. Given that, replacing him for a better 3 point shooter needs to be done.

If Indy blows it up, could Malcolm Brogdon be a target? He isn't shooting well this year, but he has mostly been a great shooter, once having a 50/40/90 year. Big PG that can create for others and can hit threes sounds perfect to me.

Could Horford, Hernangomez, Langford, the rights to Yam Mader, $3 million and 2 firsts get the Celtics Myles Turner and Malcolm Brogdon this off-season?

The Pacers clear $85 million in long term salary debt, clear $26 million in salary applied to the cap, get hometown prospect Langford, a promising Euro stashed PG in Yam, $3 million to apply to a Horford buyout and the C's 2022(a weak draft) and 2024 first rounders.

The Celtics get a stretch center that can start and is more reliable than Timelord. That sends Timelord to the bench into a better 20-24 minutes bench center role until the Celtics see him become someone that isn't out every other game due to injuries. It also gives them that vet PG that is a good defender that can run the offense and shoot the ball.

This could then open up Boston to move Richardson and Nesmith and a protected first for Harrison Barnes. Start Barnes and move Smart to a more natural bench roll:

Brogdon/Pritchard
Brown/Smart
Tatum
Barnes/G Williams
Turner/Timelord

Fill in the non-rotation spots with Begarin, an MLE veteran, Sam Hauser and some veteran min guys.

I disagree with the bolded comment on so many levels. The two Jays are currently our leaders, our all stars, our emerging stars: they set the tone. They also produce the most: they should be capable of carrying us through the doldrums of the season when when your team is depleted by injury (ahem Covid).

What I see are two individual young players establishing themselves. I see lackadaisical effort. I don’t see the team leadership skills that your superstar max contract players should possess. Tatum’s post game interviews I feel like he is on lithium. No fire or energy. Brown’s playing style is so mechanical and slow. They both have moments of brilliance. Don’t get me wrong…

But they have been anointed way too early in their career. We needed a verified bonafide all star talented player to check them and force them to earn the #1 leader spot. This would’ve brought out the leadership skills that I see are lacking: urgency, fire, energy, wisdom.

They were at the top of this team and the patients are now running the asylum.

Maybe we can add that person now and course correct. Or maybe it’s too late and a blow up is required. Either way, this team needs to change NOW!

Moranis · « **Reply #9 on:** December 28, 2021, 10:47:28 AM »

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 09:27:50 AM

Quote from: boscel33 on December 28, 2021, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

Did they really neglect it?

OK, Romeo was not a shooter, but he was a scorer. Then, although I wanted a PG, they took Nesmith who was one of the best shooters in the draft, allegedly. I don't think they ignored it, I think they missed!

They ignored it this past off-season.

Horford and Richardson in their career aren't a lot different than Fournier and Walker in their careers as shooters. And Grant has seen quite a big uptick. The team is only slightly worse on the whole when you remove Tatum, Brown, and Smart who are all shooting much worse this year.

Roy H. · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2021, 10:56:44 AM »

Quote from: Moranis on December 28, 2021, 10:47:28 AM

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 09:27:50 AM
Quote from: boscel33 on December 28, 2021, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

Did they really neglect it?

OK, Romeo was not a shooter, but he was a scorer. Then, although I wanted a PG, they took Nesmith who was one of the best shooters in the draft, allegedly. I don't think they ignored it, I think they missed!

They ignored it this past off-season.
Horford and Richardson in their career aren't a lot different than Fournier and Walker in their careers as shooters.

Horford and Richardson combined take about the same number of 3PAs as Kemba for their career, at a lower percentage.

CBS_Take a Report · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2021, 12:15:28 PM »

Circling back to original topic…

Do we agree that Beal is bet tree r and a more certified star than Brown? My answer: yes

Do we agree that Tatum/Beal want to play together? My answer: yes

Do we agree that the current team dynamic isn’t working? My answer: yes

Do we agree that cap flexibility to rebuild team differently is the easiest path to building around Tatum? My answer: yes (unless you’re of the mindset of going draft which I’m sorry I’m tired of that long 5 year path especially when it appears we have one leg of the stool in Tatum)

So trading for Beal supports all of the above. We trial Beal with Tatum. We create cap flexibility (and for a max spot) should the Tatum/Beal experiment also not work. We could waive Horford and free up enough cash to add a 3rd star around Tatum/Beal also.

PhoSita · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2021, 12:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM

The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

I don't think they're the problem per se, but they also aren't the kind of players who naturally create openings for teammates / make the game easier for those around them etc. It doesn't help that there is no bread and butter "Tatum and Brown play." It's not like there's a two man game there that the team can go back to in tough times.

All of that means that there's more onus on the supporting cast to be talented and skilled enough to provide that structure.

Who · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2021, 12:55:24 PM »

Quote from: PhoSita on December 28, 2021, 12:19:36 PM

Quote from: Roy H. on December 28, 2021, 07:42:20 AM
The problem isn’t the Jays, at least for the most part. It’s the supporting cast, particularly our guards.

I don’t understand why the team neglected shooting so much, but this is the natural consequence of that.

I don't think they're the problem per se, but they also aren't the kind of players who naturally create openings for teammates / make the game easier for those around them etc. It doesn't help that there is no bread and butter "Tatum and Brown play." It's not like there's a two man game there that the team can go back to in tough times.

All of that means that there's more onus on the supporting cast to be talented and skilled enough to provide that structure.

They are not the type of players you build a team around.

That is not to say they are not the type of players you can build a top team with them in major roles. Just that the team should not be scuplted around them.

Why?

Because they are not the types of players that can shoulder that load. They are not types of players who can organize and direct and offense. Or organize and direct a defense.

They are the types of players where you build a top team and they can fit into it because they are talented two-way guys. You build a team closer to the 2014 Spurs (4 stars, lots of depth) or the 2004 Pistons (4 stars, lots of depth) or 1979 Sonics (3 stars, lots of depth).

sgrogan · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2021, 01:03:56 PM »

Quote from: CBS_Take a Report on December 28, 2021, 12:15:28 PM

Circling back to original topic…

Do we agree that Beal is bet tree r and a more certified star than Brown? My answer: yes

Do we agree that Tatum/Beal want to play together? My answer: yes

Do we agree that the current team dynamic isn’t working? My answer: yes

Do we agree that cap flexibility to rebuild team differently is the easiest path to building around Tatum? My answer: yes (unless you’re of the mindset of going draft which I’m sorry I’m tired of that long 5 year path especially when it appears we have one leg of the stool in Tatum)

So trading for Beal supports all of the above. We trial Beal with Tatum. We create cap flexibility (and for a max spot) should the Tatum/Beal experiment also not work. We could waive Horford and free up enough cash to add a 3rd star around Tatum/Beal also.

In this scenario I don't see Beal as a trial. I think if you don't re-sign Beal you've lost Tatum. I don't discount the idea out of hand, but I think you under-estimate the downside if it doesn't work.

Author Topic: A Win/Wi ln trade (blow it up/trial new core) (Read 3518 times)

A Win/Wi ln trade (blow it up/trial new core)

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