Poll

Which best describes our big 2

Our big 2 is just not good enough individually
10 (35.7%)
Our big 2 is fine, just need a better supporting cast
9 (32.1%)
Our big 2 are good individually but are not compatible
9 (32.1%)

Total Members Voted: 27

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Author Topic: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)  (Read 2983 times)

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Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« on: December 27, 2021, 11:32:59 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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This has been discussed tangentially and directly in many other threads and there seem to be three main opinions.  I set these up as a poll.

To add some background and context, I looked at the top 10 teams in the current standings and listed out the "big 2" for each of them.  My criteria was the top 2 in scoring PPG.  Where a 3rd is listed, it means 2 and 3 were very close.

PHO:   Booker, Paul (Ayton)
GSW:  Curry, Wiggins
UTA:   Mitchell, Gorbert
BKN:   Durant, Harden
CHI:   DeRozan, LaVine
MIL:   Giannis, Middleton (Holiday)
MIA:   Butler, Herro (Adebayo)
CLE:   Garland, Allen (Sexton)
MEM:   Morant, Brooks
LAC:   George, Jackson

Right now the Lakers are not a top 10 team so James and Davis are not listed.

How many of these top 2s would you trade our top 2 for?  How much better would we be with say Giannis and Middleton paired with Smart, RWill, and I guess Schroder?

To me, this shows that our top 2 are fine, really good in fact.  I don't buy the incompatibility theory so that leaves the supporting cast.  I think our bigs are the problem.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 11:37:12 AM »

Offline boscel33

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Ayton and the Suns were unable to agree on an extension.  What would it take to acquire him and can we afford him?
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2021, 01:01:42 PM »

Offline makaveli

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There is nothing wrong with our roster…

Players have to change their bad habbits and more discipline has to be enforced

and that is on Ime…

and i am done with him
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2021, 02:41:54 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jayson and Jaylen may one day be good enough to be the centerpieces of a great team, but I think they are several years away at least. Just don't have the skillset for it right now.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2021, 03:17:17 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I don't know, seems like there are other Big 2s that are as good or better, but just not in your top 10: James/Davis, Kawhi/George, Jokic/Murray, Luka/Porzingis, Curry/Klay, Trae/Collins, KAT/Edwards, Embiid/Simmons, Zion/Ingram. Like, I might trade both Jays for any of the duos I just listed given the right circumstance.

I am not saying that I don't think the Jays are good enough to build around, I just don't think the comparisons totally match up. Hopefully we're able to find clear All-Star that will fit in with them both.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2021, 03:28:52 PM »

Offline footey

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Quote from: PhoSita on December 27, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Jayson and Jaylen may one day be good enough to be the centerpieces of a great team, but I think they are several years away at least. Just don't have the skillset for it right now.

If you believe that the skill set that both seem to be lacking is elite "play-making" (I do), is it realistic to expect them to get significantly better in that department over the next 2 to 3 years?  What do you mean by "good enough"?  That's pretty vague.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2021, 03:49:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: footey on December 27, 2021, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on December 27, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Jayson and Jaylen may one day be good enough to be the centerpieces of a great team, but I think they are several years away at least. Just don't have the skillset for it right now.

If you believe that the skill set that both seem to be lacking is elite "play-making" (I do), is it realistic to expect them to get significantly better in that department over the next 2 to 3 years?  What do you mean by "good enough"?  That's pretty vague.

You're right, it is pretty vague. I agree that the skillset in question is the ability to function effectively as a primary playmaker.  I'm not especially confident that they will get there while under their current contracts.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2021, 05:23:49 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I chose the first option, but with a small technicality in mind: The exact wording is "Our big 2 is just not good enough individually," with the present-tense "is" being the key word. I don't believe that the Tatum/Brown pairing is good enough—that is, right now, at this time. But I believe that the pair can become good enough, though that's likely to take a few more years.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2021, 10:44:45 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Quote from: PhoSita on December 27, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Jayson and Jaylen may one day be good enough to be the centerpieces of a great team, but I think they are several years away at least. Just don't have the skillset for it right now.

Can you change who a player fundamentally is ? Just not sure either J's will ever be great at playmaking.
Both are scorers, though inconsistent at that.

But my biggest fear is the lack of competitive mentality in both players.
That really is a fundamental characteristic that does not change.
They are both looking more and more similar to Andrew Wiggins  - 
meaning the third best player on a contender, if either would accept that role.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 05:17:32 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I hate to be “that guy” but I voted for the incompatibility option. But before I get blasted, I gotta make a caveat.

It’s not that they can’t play together. Talent can always play with talent. They’re not actively making each other worse (which is the narrative that was formerly being pushed which didn’t make sense to me). It’s just that they don’t bring out the best in each other. This wouldn’t be a problem if we had a surplus of talent and we could afford being “too good” at certain positions, but ever since our FA’s started leaving, the existing talent pool is drying up.

If we could only carry 2 all-star caliber players on this team, I think either of the Jays would benefit from having an elite, all star caliber playmaker beside them instead of each other. I don’t have any names coming to mind so I won’t even try. Individually though, I think they’re both brilliant and have all the tools u could ask for in a wing.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2021, 09:38:23 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: tenn_smoothie on December 27, 2021, 10:44:45 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on December 27, 2021, 02:41:54 PM
Jayson and Jaylen may one day be good enough to be the centerpieces of a great team, but I think they are several years away at least. Just don't have the skillset for it right now.

Can you change who a player fundamentally is ? Just not sure either J's will ever be great at playmaking.
Both are scorers, though inconsistent at that.

But my biggest fear is the lack of competitive mentality in both players.
That really is a fundamental characteristic that does not change.
They are both looking more and more similar to Andrew Wiggins  - 
meaning the third best player on a contender, if either would accept that role.


I think we've seen good players add to their games over time. Jaylen has come a long way over the last few years.

I'm not totally out on the ability of the Jays to get there one day. I have a feeling that we're going to see them play great basketball someday. I just think it's going to be when they're wearing different uniforms.
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2021, 11:29:05 AM »

Offline wiley

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Quote from: LilRip on December 28, 2021, 05:17:32 AM
I hate to be “that guy” but I voted for the incompatibility option. But before I get blasted, I gotta make a caveat.

It’s not that they can’t play together. Talent can always play with talent. They’re not actively making each other worse (which is the narrative that was formerly being pushed which didn’t make sense to me). It’s just that they don’t bring out the best in each other. This wouldn’t be a problem if we had a surplus of talent and we could afford being “too good” at certain positions, but ever since our FA’s started leaving, the existing talent pool is drying up.

If we could only carry 2 all-star caliber players on this team, I think either of the Jays would benefit from having an elite, all star caliber playmaker beside them instead of each other. I don’t have any names coming to mind so I won’t even try. Individually though, I think they’re both brilliant and have all the tools u could ask for in a wing.

I voted same, and feel same...they are not making each other worse....

at the moment...as someone said it another thread....watching the Celtics play on offense lately is like watching a team with two Carmelo Anthony's trying to play team ball.  That could change in the future if we keep both...they could each add some Gordon Hayward type facilitation skills....but for now...we have a two Carmelo team, though not that elite in scoring (with Brown an excellent defender and with Tatum a wider skill set than Melo).  The issue is how to run an offense with TWO guys who do iso better than anything else.

This is not the fault of either one...but for team ball it creates problems, and makes it harder to watch the team.  I felt this way during the offseason and would have liked to see a gamble trade for Scottie Barnes...

In any case, our role players are constantly trashed...I think they are a bit better than people are giving credit for...it is very hard two play well on a two-Carmelo team. 

So find a hard nosed distributor who can organize the Jays onset one offense...or trade one of them.  (for now I'd trade just one...that's how to find out which of our young role players can really contribute down the road).
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2021, 11:59:38 AM »

Offline showtime

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 Tatum is good enough to build around, Brown is a one dimensional offensive player, who is capable of scoring, when not paid attention to,  and little else!
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Re: Where we stand with our Big 2 (Tatum-Brown)
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2021, 12:22:50 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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To be fair Jaylen is a guy who it seems needs to work his way up to his peak level. I don't think he's quite there yet physically.  He has been fading after quick starts. Also he's struggling with his handle - which he's done in the past when he's building his stamina.

Now whether he's a bona-fide #2 is up for debate certainly. He was fully capable of taking over last night's game and didn't.

And also how well does he fit with Tatum? 
I think this team badly needs a quality point guard - especially if they plan on keeping Jaylen long term.  Or they could trade him for that quality PG but then they'd still need to find a 3rd wheel.
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