I'm not against trading Jaylen

[nickagneta]

For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume Lillard becomes available. After all, the Blazers are 11th in the West right now and they've lost 8 of their last 10 games.

- If you were the Blazers, would you rather

• a) trade him for Brown
• b) trade him for Simmons
• c) trade both Lillard and McCollum for a gazillion picks+prospects+fillers and build from scratch

- If you were Brad, would you do a deal around Brown and Lillard?

Same questions go for Bradley Beal and the Wizards.

Don't forget there were rumors of Brad's interest in Simmons and discussions between the teams in either preseason or the very start of this season. The rumors stated that the team's interest for Simmons would be to bring Simmons in to compliment the Jays not to replace one.

Also, the rumors said it was possible the teams would renew talks when players became available that could be traded because they couldn't be traded until Dec/Jan.

Given these rumors, I have to believe if Brad wanted Simmons bad enough to trade Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. That's why I dismiss Jaylen for Simmons trade proposals out of hand.

Just because Brad was unwilling to include Brown in the deal at the time, it doesn't mean he can't change his mind, especially since we are underperforming. It might also was a negotiation strategy. Trades are like the game of chicken. Whomever backs down first loses the trade. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily advocating in favour of a Brown for Simmons+ swap. All I'm saying is it might be a possibility. Basketball-wise, it's probably fair value for both teams. I'd expect us to get additional assets only because Simmons has ruined his trade value by refusing to play for Philly.

In any case, I wouldn't put much thought into trade rumors. More often than not, they are leaks from teams/agents trying to push their own agenda. I do believe we are interested in Simmons, but that's primarily because he'd be an amazing fit alongside the Jays, not solely because of the rumors.

The rumors were from Shams Charania and Gary Washburn so I think they are legit. We will see. I also don't see Brad changing his mind about trading Brown any time soon. He is pretty vehement in interviews in his denial of Brown trade rumors. Unlike Ainge, I don't has that Brad has the "dishonest to the press gene" in him.

[droopdog7]

Here is the thing, once you realize that isn't what you maybe thought he was going to be, it's too late.  I agree that Jaylen is no longer a prospect and (at least to me), it's pretty clear what he is and isn't.  Yes, I've been termed a Jaylen hater by some but it has everything to do with the idea that I never thought we had a true superstar.

But he's no longer a prospect.  So there are really two things to get for Jaylen in a trade.  You can get another pretty good player that has flaws too, just different ones.  I don't think you can trade Jaylen for a superstar unless that star is demanding a trade to Boston.  The other possibility in a trade, and I'm not suggesting this right now, is to essentially blow it up.  Trade Jaylen for a younger prospect or picks.

My main point though is whatever you get back will likely not be completely satisfactory either.

At least be honest. You didn't even think the Celtics had an NBA player. Three years of posting history that can be easily accessed proves that.

Did I say he wasn’t an nba player?  Initially I was down on him as a star and he’s proven me wrong on that, depending on what you consider a star.  He’s about 30 and that’s about his ceiling.

Lots of people been claiming he would be a star star.  They’re wrong too.  Indeed, the flaws that brown had early on are still there.  Runs head into the defense, can’t pass, doesn’t make plays for others.  Overall, brown would be a pretty good third guy on a contender.  As the second guy, his stats have improved (credit to him) but the team has not.

[BitterJim]

Here is the thing, once you realize that isn't what you maybe thought he was going to be, it's too late.  I agree that Jaylen is no longer a prospect and (at least to me), it's pretty clear what he is and isn't.  Yes, I've been termed a Jaylen hater by some but it has everything to do with the idea that I never thought we had a true superstar.

But he's no longer a prospect.  So there are really two things to get for Jaylen in a trade.  You can get another pretty good player that has flaws too, just different ones.  I don't think you can trade Jaylen for a superstar unless that star is demanding a trade to Boston.  The other possibility in a trade, and I'm not suggesting this right now, is to essentially blow it up.  Trade Jaylen for a younger prospect or picks.

My main point though is whatever you get back will likely not be completely satisfactory either.

At least be honest. You didn't even think the Celtics had an NBA player. Three years of posting history that can be easily accessed proves that.

Did I say he wasn’t an nba player?  Initially I was down on him as a star and he’s proven me wrong on that, depending on what you consider a star.  He’s about 30 and that’s about his ceiling.

Lots of people been claiming he would be a star star.  They’re wrong too.

What does that even mean? He turned 25 in October, that isn't "about 30".

[droopdog7]

Here is the thing, once you realize that isn't what you maybe thought he was going to be, it's too late.  I agree that Jaylen is no longer a prospect and (at least to me), it's pretty clear what he is and isn't.  Yes, I've been termed a Jaylen hater by some but it has everything to do with the idea that I never thought we had a true superstar.

But he's no longer a prospect.  So there are really two things to get for Jaylen in a trade.  You can get another pretty good player that has flaws too, just different ones.  I don't think you can trade Jaylen for a superstar unless that star is demanding a trade to Boston.  The other possibility in a trade, and I'm not suggesting this right now, is to essentially blow it up.  Trade Jaylen for a younger prospect or picks.

My main point though is whatever you get back will likely not be completely satisfactory either.

At least be honest. You didn't even think the Celtics had an NBA player. Three years of posting history that can be easily accessed proves that.

Did I say he wasn’t an nba player?  Initially I was down on him as a star and he’s proven me wrong on that, depending on what you consider a star.  He’s about 30 and that’s about his ceiling.

Lots of people been claiming he would be a star star.  They’re wrong too.

What does that even mean? He turned 25 in October, that isn't "about 30".

Give or take the 30th best player in the league.

[Jvalin]

For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume Lillard becomes available. After all, the Blazers are 11th in the West right now and they've lost 8 of their last 10 games.

- If you were the Blazers, would you rather

• a) trade him for Brown
• b) trade him for Simmons
• c) trade both Lillard and McCollum for a gazillion picks+prospects+fillers and build from scratch

- If you were Brad, would you do a deal around Brown and Lillard?

Same questions go for Bradley Beal and the Wizards.

Don't forget there were rumors of Brad's interest in Simmons and discussions between the teams in either preseason or the very start of this season. The rumors stated that the team's interest for Simmons would be to bring Simmons in to compliment the Jays not to replace one.

Also, the rumors said it was possible the teams would renew talks when players became available that could be traded because they couldn't be traded until Dec/Jan.

Given these rumors, I have to believe if Brad wanted Simmons bad enough to trade Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. That's why I dismiss Jaylen for Simmons trade proposals out of hand.

Just because Brad was unwilling to include Brown in the deal at the time, it doesn't mean he can't change his mind, especially since we are underperforming. It might also was a negotiation strategy. Trades are like the game of chicken. Whomever backs down first loses the trade. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily advocating in favour of a Brown for Simmons+ swap. All I'm saying is it might be a possibility. Basketball-wise, it's probably fair value for both teams. I'd expect us to get additional assets only because Simmons has ruined his trade value by refusing to play for Philly.

In any case, I wouldn't put much thought into trade rumors. More often than not, they are leaks from teams/agents trying to push their own agenda. I do believe we are interested in Simmons, but that's primarily because he'd be an amazing fit alongside the Jays, not solely because of the rumors.

The rumors were from Shams Charania and Gary Washburn so I think they are legit. We will see. I also don't see Brad changing his mind about trading Brown any time soon. He is pretty vehement in interviews in his denial of Brown trade rumors. Unlike Ainge, I don't has that Brad has the "dishonest to the press gene" in him.

Shams has legit connections with agents/teams. All this means is he doesn't make stuff up. He still posts what his connections feed him. His connections might be making stuff up to promote their own agenda. Just because he's reputable, it doesn't mean what he says is necessarily true. It means it's based on a legit source. He isn't making educated guesses pretending he has inside sources like plenty other writers do.

[Moranis]

For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume Lillard becomes available. After all, the Blazers are 11th in the West right now and they've lost 8 of their last 10 games.

- If you were the Blazers, would you rather

• a) trade him for Brown
• b) trade him for Simmons
• c) trade both Lillard and McCollum for a gazillion picks+prospects+fillers and build from scratch

- If you were Brad, would you do a deal around Brown and Lillard?

Same questions go for Bradley Beal and the Wizards.

Don't forget there were rumors of Brad's interest in Simmons and discussions between the teams in either preseason or the very start of this season. The rumors stated that the team's interest for Simmons would be to bring Simmons in to compliment the Jays not to replace one.

Also, the rumors said it was possible the teams would renew talks when players became available that could be traded because they couldn't be traded until Dec/Jan.

Given these rumors, I have to believe if Brad wanted Simmons bad enough to trade Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. That's why I dismiss Jaylen for Simmons trade proposals out of hand.

Just because Brad was unwilling to include Brown in the deal at the time, it doesn't mean he can't change his mind, especially since we are underperforming. It might also was a negotiation strategy. Trades are like the game of chicken. Whomever backs down first loses the trade. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily advocating in favour of a Brown for Simmons+ swap. All I'm saying is it might be a possibility. Basketball-wise, it's probably fair value for both teams. I'd expect us to get additional assets only because Simmons has ruined his trade value by refusing to play for Philly.

In any case, I wouldn't put much thought into trade rumors. More often than not, they are leaks from teams/agents trying to push their own agenda. I do believe we are interested in Simmons, but that's primarily because he'd be an amazing fit alongside the Jays, not solely because of the rumors.

The rumors were from Shams Charania and Gary Washburn so I think they are legit. We will see. I also don't see Brad changing his mind about trading Brown any time soon. He is pretty vehement in interviews in his denial of Brown trade rumors. Unlike Ainge, I don't has that Brad has the "dishonest to the press gene" in him.

Shams has legit connections with agents/teams. All this means is he doesn't make stuff up. He still posts what his connections feed him. His connections might be making stuff up to promote their own agenda. That's how the system works. Just because he's reputable, it doesn't mean what he says is necessarily true. It means it's based on a legit source. He isn't making educated guesses pretending he has inside sources like plenty other writers do.

I don't think swapping Brown for Simmons makes sense as the team is currently constructed.  Simmons is not a 2nd scorer and the team doesn't have one (without Brown I mean).  However, if the team did the McCollum trade I proposed, then swapping Brown for Simmons makes a lot more sense because in that scenario McCollum is the 2nd scorer, not Simmons. 

[Redz]

I know it simply might nit be in the cards with the Covid protocols, but I'd like to see what this team looks when they have a chance to play their top 8 guys in a regular rotation for a week or two.  I'm not super confident that we have that great a team regardless, but man, I'd at least like to see what they are.

Jaylen looks like he's just getting his legs back. 

[CFAN38]

I hate the idea of trading Brown and splitting up the Jays but also understand that the team needs to put this core ( Tatum,Brown, Smart) on the clock with a plan to move onto the next core quickly if things down turn around this season. In theory Tatum and Brown are exactly what a team wants to build around but they need to start showing it together on the court.


In the event Brown is eventually moved it needs to be be a kings ransom as he will undoubtedly be extremely productive as the center piece of the team he is traded too. 

[Who]

Indeed, the flaws that brown had early on are still there.  Runs head into the defense, can’t pass, doesn’t make plays for others.  Overall, brown would be a pretty good third guy on a contender.  Ad the second guy, his stats have improved (credit to him) but the team has not.

If his passing fails to improve, I am inclined to agree -- Jaylen is best suited to being the 3rd option rather than the 2nd option. His lack of passing makes him a dodgy #2. Particularly so when Tatum (our #1) isn't anything special as a passer either.

Now, I haven't closed the book on Jaylen improving as a passer. He is clearly a very hard worker who has developed and improved his game year after year.

And players in general (league-wide) are improving their passing more than they have done in the past - my theory being the spaced out courts make it easier for them to practice and learn repetitive scenarios to grow passing.

So there are good reasons for continued patience and optimism regarding Jaylen. I wouldn't be looking to write him off or trade him based on his flaws to date ... but I do agree that without improvement to his passing, he is best suited to being a 3rd option more so than a 2nd option.

[BruceBanner18]

Indeed, the flaws that brown had early on are still there.  Runs head into the defense, can’t pass, doesn’t make plays for others.  Overall, brown would be a pretty good third guy on a contender.  Ad the second guy, his stats have improved (credit to him) but the team has not.

If his passing fails to improve, I am inclined to agree -- Jaylen is best suited to being the 3rd option rather than the 2nd option. His lack of passing makes him a dodgy #2. Particularly so when Tatum (our #1) isn't anything special as a passer either.

Now, I haven't closed the book on Jaylen improving as a passer. He is clearly a very hard worker who has developed and improved his game year after year.

And players in general (league-wide) are improving their passing more than they have done in the past - my theory being the spaced out courts make it easier for them to practice and learn repetitive scenarios to grow passing.

So there are good reasons for continued patience and optimism regarding Jaylen. I wouldn't be looking to write him off or trade him based on his flaws to date ... but I do agree that without improvement to his passing, he is best suited to being a 3rd option more so than a 2nd option.

If we are taking short term, Tatum isn't ready to win as a #1 option yet either. To be a legit contenders this year, or prob over the next couple of years, we'd need to add a player better than Tatum and Brown.

[CFAN38]

Indeed, the flaws that brown had early on are still there.  Runs head into the defense, can’t pass, doesn’t make plays for others.  Overall, brown would be a pretty good third guy on a contender.  Ad the second guy, his stats have improved (credit to him) but the team has not.

If his passing fails to improve, I am inclined to agree -- Jaylen is best suited to being the 3rd option rather than the 2nd option. His lack of passing makes him a dodgy #2. Particularly so when Tatum (our #1) isn't anything special as a passer either.

Now, I haven't closed the book on Jaylen improving as a passer. He is clearly a very hard worker who has developed and improved his game year after year.

And players in general (league-wide) are improving their passing more than they have done in the past - my theory being the spaced out courts make it easier for them to practice and learn repetitive scenarios to grow passing.

So there are good reasons for continued patience and optimism regarding Jaylen. I wouldn't be looking to write him off or trade him based on his flaws to date ... but I do agree that without improvement to his passing, he is best suited to being a 3rd option more so than a 2nd option.

This is kind of a digression from the original topic but ideally BS is able to put together what I review as the ideal roster construction around the Jays before splitting them up. I would like to see more of a floor general/pass first PG and a vet starting level swing man. An example would be a lineup of Rubio, Brown, Tatum, H Barnes and Al. 

[Big333223]

No one is off the table but I don't get the "trade Jaylen" discussions.

An all star wing who can score from anywhere on the court and guard 1-4 who keeps getting better every single year. Getting a guy like Jaylen is the dream.

Would I trade him for Giannis or Luca? Of course. Would I trade him for Beal or Simmons? No.

[Rondo9]

No one is off the table but I don't get the "trade Jaylen" discussions.

An all star wing who can score from anywhere on the court and guard 1-4 who keeps getting better every single year. Getting a guy like Jaylen is the dream.

Would I trade him for Giannis or Luca? Of course. Would I trade him for Beal or Simmons? No.

A bunch of Rick Pitinos here lol. Brown is an all star why trade him so quickly?

[tonydelk]

No one is off the table but I don't get the "trade Jaylen" discussions.

An all star wing who can score from anywhere on the court and guard 1-4 who keeps getting better every single year. Getting a guy like Jaylen is the dream.

Would I trade him for Giannis or Luca? Of course. Would I trade him for Beal or Simmons? No.

Spot on here.  Good post.

[Rosco917]

I look at the Phoenix Suns sitting with the best record in basketball and ask myself...how? Three years ago they were the door mats of the West. When you look at their core players, their individual starting five aren't anymore talented than a healthy Celtic team. The bench is a little stronger.

Then I remember basketball is a team sport, and chemistry has a great deal to do with how a team functions. Much like a musical band. (Can you picture the Beatles with Kieth Moon on drums?) The pieces must mesh and balance so the outcome is positive.

Yes, Jaylen is a special talent but he just doesn't mesh consistently with Tatum, not yet anyway.