Author Topic: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season  (Read 12466 times)

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Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« on: November 02, 2021, 10:04:14 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm in my feelings this morning thanks to this team, and here's where my head is at.  Some reactionary thoughts the rational part of my brain can't entirely talk me out of right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiOA7euaYA&ab_channel=DavidByrne

- Teams take on the personality of their best players and the Celtics are an undisciplined, not especially clever or creative basketball team that defaults to bad habits (hero ball) in tough moments.  The Celtics are a mentally weak team with no edge; this has been true for several years now, and the consistent ingredients are Tatum, Brown, and Smart.  Tatum and Brown shoulder the blame for me because they are the "stars," but I think Smart sees himself as the true leader and emotional core of the team.  It would be nice if Smart were the leader of the team, perhaps, but he isn't, and I suspect that it's a problematic dynamic in the locker room.

- Rob Williams and Romeo Langford will never be fully healthy for more than a game or two at a time.  They will always have nagging injuries.  Romeo, for his part, just does not seem like he's going to get to a point where he can be a regular contributor, at least not in a Celtics uniform.

- Ime Udoka has been bad.  As in "reminiscent of Luke Walton" bad.  I can't think of a single thing I like about what I've seen from the team this year that I would attribute to the coach.  You expect a rookie head coach to maybe have some ups and downs, but Ime has not even delivered on the things that I hoped he would provide compared to Brad.  Brad was burnt out, but he was still one of the better coaches in the league.  Ime looks like one of the worst.

- The Celtics are going to be 5-10 games under .500 by Christmas.  This isn't getting any easier and given the strength of the East this could be a lost season by new year.  Go ahead and look at the upcoming schedule.  It's brutal.  This team has not demonstrated the fortitude to make it through adversity. 

- It's still early, both for this season and for the Jays' tenure in Boston.  Jaylen has 3 years left and Tatum has 4.  Even so, this sure *looks* like the first part of a very painful story in which the Celtics grow increasingly dysfunctional as the team becomes more and more centered around Tatum and Brown, and one or both guys ends up requesting a trade.

- The Celtics have basically lost talent every single summer for 4 straight off-seasons, and the Jays aren't good enough to make up for it.  Jaylen and Jayson have shown that they can carry an offensive burden on a nightly basis.  What they can't do is basically any of the other things you want from your stars.  They aren't leaders on the floor or off.  They don't set a tone of offense.  They don't take control in crunch time.  They don't get to the line very often and so don't provide a consistent baseline of scoring to ward off scoring droughts when the jumpshots stop falling.  They aren't playmakers and they don't really make life easier for their teammates. 

It used to be that we could cite their age, but realistically both Tatum and Brown have been in the league for half a decade at this point.  They've played a lot of minutes in the regular season and been core components of teams that have been in a lot of playoff games.  Both of them have grown a ton in their scoring ability and the variety of skills they have to get shots.  Yet they're both still so, so far away from being able to function as the lead playmaker for a good team.  If either of them is ever going to be the kind of star scorer that makes teammates better, I don't think it's going to happen in a Celtics uniform.

- Brad Stevens failed to equip this team with the passing and ball-handling that is so clearly needed around two high volume scorers that lack playmaking ability.  He compounded that error by failing to keep or add above average shooting to maintain spacing around two high volume individual scorers.

- Ime Udoka not playing the young guys is an indictment not just of Ime but of Brad as well.  If Ime is simply not the kind of coach who is going to focus on developing the younger players on what is still a very young roster, he was not the right choice for head coach.

- The Celtics don't do anything well.  They aren't a good defensive team, despite their personnel. They don't defend the perimeter well. They aren't big enough to prevent talented opponents like Chicago from scoring bunches inside. They don't get to the free throw line enough. They lack ballhandlers and passers.  Their crunch time offense is predictable and easy to defend.  They can't hold leads and they can't close out games.  There's just not much to feel good about when you watch them, which is why I'm planning on taking a break from watching them for a while.


Overall, pretty bad! I've tried to maintain patience with this team, as it's still early.  We haven't hit the 20 game mark, if we're following Jeff Clark's rule about drawing conclusions early in a season.  But this season so far has truly looked like a continuation of last season, despite the change in coach and the supporting cast.  In that sense it feels like the team has been in a dark place for over a year now.  This team has been bad vibes and a persistent bummer basically since the Miami series in the bubble.  I don't have any faith at this point that it's going to get better. 

I fear that we're on a long, slow, painful slide into an inevitable rebuild. I find myself already pining for the eventual "Kenny Atkinson coaching a bunch of cast-off vets and rookie contract guys" season in which the Celtics go 30-52 and get a top 10 pick. 

I remember when the Celtics got Jayson Tatum thinking how lucky we were as fans that the Celts managed to find the kind of player who only comes along a couple times in a generation, and they didn't even have to tank (ok I didn't know he would be that good right away, but it became clear early on). The ECF runs early in Jayson's career made it seem like the sky was the limit.  The bloom is off the rose now, it feels like.  Jayson is a sensational scorer, but it seems like he's just fundamentally lacking the things you need in your best player.  I like Jaylen a lot, but he's missing a lot of the same things.

Ahhh ... well.  I'm taking a break from this team (or will try to anyway).  I'm telling myself that I'll watch again when they're above .500 again.  When will that be? I fear it'll be a while.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 12:04:58 PM by PhoSita »
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2021, 11:10:15 AM »

Offline OhioGreen

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Agree OP comments--ALOT!
Just a couple of points of my own.  Your star players need to be leaders by being very vocal, fiery, or just so [dang] great that just playing along side them makes teammates want to run thru walls for them! (Jordan, Bird, LBJ, Giannis)
If your team is going to live or die by the three, you'd better have a bunch of guys, who when they're open, NEVER MISS! (SCurry, Duncan Robinson, Klay Thompson, Joe Harris, Seth Curry, etc.)
Our stars are very soft spoken and while really good, are just not great!
We don't even have ONE player who is lights out shooting the 3 ball!
And as PhoSita mentioned a TRUE POINT GUARD (ala vintage Rondo) would go a long ways to solving some of our many problems.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 11:48:56 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Pretty much agree with all those hot takes.

Udoka isn't going anywhere.

Schroder is the best PG on the team.

Horford is the only vet/leader.

My hot take: A blockbuster trade is coming.  The team's salary picture is perfectly set up for it.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2021, 11:58:05 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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can't disagree with much here.  one caveat I would add is that I do think Timelord and Romeo will show they're capable rotation players but they may never get past their own fragility to play a high number of games for us during any season.

have to say I felt the same way about the PG situation.  Smart is not a starting-level PG.  doesn't have the handles, passing or scoring ability to be starting in that position.  it'd be different if we had a SG that could do those things but we don't.

Also agree that the J's are not the playmakers that we need.  fantastic scorers and can be terrific defenders when they're dialed in but they need to be getting the ball fed to them where they can score rather than dribble the ball into the floor trying to take their man one on one or making a bad pass/turnover.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2021, 12:02:36 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I want to make something clear, in case it wasn't in the OP.

I'm not pretending that I saw any of this coming. I was optimistic about this season being different. I thought they would win 45-50 games and be in the second round of the playoffs. I thought it would be a good vibes bounce back season even if they weren't a real contender.

So this isn't a victory lap or something. Much to the contrary.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2021, 12:04:34 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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Pretty much agree with all those hot takes.

Udoka isn't going anywhere.

Schroder is the best PG on the team.

Horford is the only vet/leader.

My hot take: A blockbuster trade is coming.  The team's salary picture is perfectly set up for it.


"A blockbuster trade is coming." The only trade that I would consider blockbuster is the trading of Marcus Smart. You know for sure they'll never trade either of the J's. By trading Smart the heart of this team turns to jello. 

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2021, 12:07:06 PM »

Offline liam

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I want to make something clear, in case it wasn't in the OP.

I'm not pretending that I saw any of this coming. I was optimistic about this season being different. I thought they would win 45-50 games and be in the second round of the playoffs. I thought it would be a good vibes bounce back season even if they weren't a real contender.

So this isn't a victory lap or something. Much to the contrary.

Me too! I was excited about Ime and the things he said he'd do. I was excited about a deep balanced roster. I was excited to watch Romeo, Pritchard and Nesmith taking the next step. I was excited to see our defense get back to the tops in the NBA. I am truly shocked with how we've stumbled out of the gate.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2021, 12:08:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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If I were Brad I would be on the look out for a trade that sends out some of the veterans, ie Richardson, Schroder, Smart, Parker, and gets back any sort of draft capital or youth.

If the Celts are not going to be good and you have a coach who wants to lean on vets, you need to take away his veteran binkies to clear the way for guys who need development time, i.e. Pritchard, Nesmith, Langford.

I don't really think that's gonna happen though. More likely the Celts make a desperation move to add another veteran scorer e.g. finally going after Harrison Barnes or something.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2021, 12:12:15 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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The Celtics are too young right now. Sure they have some vets, but, we all know championship rosters feature top players that are hungry for a title. This hunger is born of years of playing on teams like these Celtics. Lot of younger guys with lots of talent and no Pierce, Garnett, Allen..."I have only a couple of years left" types of players.

The J's aren't experienced enough to lead this team and unfortunately Smart/ Horford/Schroder aren't leading it either.

I don't think there is a need to focus on Smart's ups and downs. Stevens has to decide whether to keep him or not and hey, he was picked #6 overall and is a great player...sometimes.

Tatum and Brown would be better being the young guys on a veteran team and the reverse is true.

Regardless, it is a team sport and they MUST learn to play together.

Tatum is having problems this year and I don't know what they are.

Part of it is, he is too young and doesn't have the experience to draw on.

I think they will get over this and perhaps, these struggles will form the foundation for a good run.

I imagine they have figured out that "showing up" isn't going to win they any games.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2021, 12:16:17 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I want to make something clear, in case it wasn't in the OP.

I'm not pretending that I saw any of this coming. I was optimistic about this season being different. I thought they would win 45-50 games and be in the second round of the playoffs. I thought it would be a good vibes bounce back season even if they weren't a real contender.

So this isn't a victory lap or something. Much to the contrary.
didn't take it as a victory lap.  only the most negative posters here would treat the team's play this season as any sort of 'victory'.

I was optimistic for this season though I did have lower expectations.  The lack of a real starting-caliber PG and a legit 3rd scorer that was a threat to go off for 20+ points in a game where one of the J's was having an off night were real concerns I had and have been on display so far this season.

there's too much talent on the roster for this to be a 2-5 team or a lottery team.  question is can something be done to right the ship before it's too late to salvage the season.  getting into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth would not be something I consider a positive -- they'd be better off missing the playoffs in that case to get a better draft pick to hopefully add some good young talent because they've got to have some roster changes this offseason to address the PG and scoring situations.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2021, 12:17:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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can't disagree with much here.  one caveat I would add is that I do think Timelord and Romeo will show they're capable rotation players but they may never get past their own fragility to play a high number of games for us during any season.

have to say I felt the same way about the PG situation.  Smart is not a starting-level PG.  doesn't have the handles, passing or scoring ability to be starting in that position.  it'd be different if we had a SG that could do those things but we don't.

Also agree that the J's are not the playmakers that we need.  fantastic scorers and can be terrific defenders when they're dialed in but they need to be getting the ball fed to them where they can score rather than dribble the ball into the floor trying to take their man one on one or making a bad pass/turnover.

Re: the PG situation, it strikes me that there were reports of the Celts trying hard to acquire Jrue Holiday and then Lonzo Ball in back to back summers.  They fell short.

But it seems like they understood what they needed.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2021, 12:22:29 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Here’s my hot take:

Starters:
Horford
Tatum
Brown
Nesmith
Schroder

Nesmith is our best offensive player after Tatum, Brown and Horford.  We need to find out sooner than later how the trip of Tatum, Brown and Nesmith play together.

Bench: Time Lord, Kanter (but actually play him sometimes…) Grant, Juancho, Langford, Smart and Pritchard

If Ime hasn’t shown any improvement by the All-Star break, let him go.

I’d also go hard after Montrezl Harrell with the mid level this off season. We need someone who plays with raw emotion and fire on the court.

Probably make space to offer Beal the Max - fill in the jokes around Tatum, Brown and Beal.

See if we can move Smart for a legit PF -

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2021, 12:40:06 PM »

Offline liam

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Here’s my hot take:

Starters:
Horford
Tatum
Brown
Nesmith
Schroder

Nesmith is our best offensive player after Tatum, Brown and Horford.  We need to find out sooner than later how the trip of Tatum, Brown and Nesmith play together.

Bench: Time Lord, Kanter (but actually play him sometimes…) Grant, Juancho, Langford, Smart and Pritchard

If Ime hasn’t shown any improvement by the All-Star break, let him go.

I’d also go hard after Montrezl Harrell with the mid level this off season. We need someone who plays with raw emotion and fire on the court.

Probably make space to offer Beal the Max - fill in the jokes around Tatum, Brown and Beal.

See if we can move Smart for a legit PF -

Nesmith should be getting time he is an energy play we could use. If there's a lack of energy and focus Ime needs to play energy guys off the bench. Pritchard took a charge in yesterday's game and was never seen again. Those kinds of plays win games. We could've used someone stepping up and taking charges in the 4th.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2021, 01:09:55 PM »

Offline footey

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My biggest takeaways:

1. Ime has to deepen his rotation.  You can't expect guys coming off double OT loss to play a hard 48 two nights later. We played great until end of 3rd, when we ran out of steam.  Work Nesmith into the lineup. Play Pritchard and Romeo more. Play minutes with both Jaylen and Jayson sitting.  Force their bench guys to become relevant.  That is what the Bulls are doing.
2. We have poor interior defense.  Lavine and DeRosen can't be stopped by anyone one on one, that is where having bigs rotate in to defend is important. We have no second line of defense. 
3. I was a huge Rob Williams fan going into this season.  Now I am wondering who this imposter is.  He can't jump. He gives up on defense.  He is scared to dunk the ball.  He gets his shot blocked by shooting guards. Who is this guy? 
4.  This team desperately needs a quality PG to run the offense.  Danny knew this when he traded for Kyrie, and later when he signed Kemba.  Bad fortune ruined those plans, but the need remains the same.   
5. We are a terrible rebounding team.  Zero rebounds in the 4th quarter last night.  Cherry on top of this point.

Re: Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2021, 01:10:42 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think this team actually has more talent on paper than last years. Despite their age difference Horford is currently outplaying Kemba. Even if we don’t love the fit Schroeder, Richardson and kanter have to be at least as talented as 30 games of Fournier.