Sorry C’s fans there’s proof this team is ‘soft’

[blink]

I am going to be on the fence here a bit and say I agree that the team is somewhat soft (I would also call it entitled), but not because of the stats that the original poster mentioned.  To me that original 'why' of the post isn't correct at all.  It actually proves the opposite. 

But at the same time you have to admit that just from an eye test, we have a bad game and don't always respond with better effort the next game.  A bad call will go against us, and we can't mentally move on fast enough.  Tatum, as talented as he is - and yes his ceiling is an MVP, is easily disrupted a bit mentally and will kind of complain too much and have bad body language.  It is kind of the softness that comes from immaturity and inexperience, and a bit of entitlement.  Both Smart and Jaylen have had similar issues, but to a lesser degree.  Even Paul Pierce was like that early in his career. 

I think / hope that some of that softness naturally corrects itself.  I expect and hope that an early exit this year from the playoffs (which I expect will be our result) will harden our guys a bit.  The J's seem to be hard workers and they are getting better, but they are two YOUNG guys who have had a lot of success early, and it probably wouldn't be terrible if they kind of took it on the chin this year a bit to give them a bit of a chip on their shoulder.

[blink]

Assuming this is true and we are soft and in need of a cultural infusion of toughness who could possibly be players that we could target that could come in and set the tone?

Mentally Tough Tier List

S Tier - Mentally Unshakeable
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant (On the court not on Social Media)

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Kyle Lowry
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Lebron James
Zion Williamson
Julius Randle (Unless this year is an aberration)

B Tier - Supremely talented but can get in their own head
James Harden
Giannis Antetokoumpo
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Bradley Beal
Russell Westbrook
Donovan Mitchell
Jamal Murray
Devon Booker
Ja Morant
Joel Embiid
Zach Lavine
Nikola Vucevic
DeAaron Fox
Anthony Davis
RJ Barrett
Bam Adebayo
CJ McCollum
Domantas Sabonis

C Tier - Likely to lose mental composure or not talented enough to affect culture on a deep level
Kemba Walker
Paul George (Although he is improving)
Rudy Gobert
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben Simmons
Jrue Holiday
Trae Young
Pascal Siakam
Demar Derozan
Marcus Smart
Deangelo Russell
Gordon Hayward
Anthony Edwards
Lamelo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Draymond Green
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon
Mike Conley
OG Anunoby
Deandre Ayton(Could see him rising)
Jonas Valenciunas (Tough but might not move the needle)

Thoughts on the List
-Most players are not attainable. Any culture improvement would best come from internal development or a coaching change.
- The ideal course of action for improving the toughness culture would probably be to throw everything at either Lillard or Leonard.
- Kyle Lowry might be great as a Smart/Kemba replacement. 
- I put Middleton in A tier despite him lacking the talent of the others. Always dangerous in a playoff game.
- Draymond is in Trash Tier but he was only 2 or 3 years removed from A or even S Tier. Could be a sneaky great culture fixer option if nothing else is available.

This is a really interesting list.  Even though I am no Lebron fan, I don't see how he isn't in the S tier.

[Celtics4ever]

Tatum is an immense talent but he definitely does not seem like a culture changing hero type folks.   Neither was Kevin McHale but he was a great player.   Neither was PP, a lot of guys are very good scorers and producers but are not leaders.

But Tatum is so young he still could become that guy.   I do think Brown and him compete in a way that is good for each other and the team.   But even Larry Bird or Russell would struggle to compete or motivate some of our guys.   The athletic talent just is not there in some cases, the mental ability is not there for whatever reason.

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities

LeBron?   LOL  LeBron is a great player but he is F on your scale.   He has openly quit on his team and thrown them under the bus.   He stacked teams so he could win titles.  He has got many a coach fired.   He has also forced teams into bad moves he liked and left them high and dry.

He is a transcendent great player, who produces at an astounding level.   But a leader?   Come on, get real....

[nickagneta]

I am going to be on the fence here a bit and say I agree that the team is somewhat soft (I would also call it entitled), but not because of the stats that the original poster mentioned.  To me that original 'why' of the post isn't correct at all.  It actually proves the opposite. 

But at the same time you have to admit that just from an eye test, we have a bad game and don't always respond with better effort the next game.  A bad call will go against us, and we can't mentally move on fast enough.  Tatum, as talented as he is - and yes his ceiling is an MVP, is easily disrupted a bit mentally and will kind of complain too much and have bad body language.  It is kind of the softness that comes from immaturity and inexperience, and a bit of entitlement.  Both Smart and Jaylen have had similar issues, but to a lesser degree.  Even Paul Pierce was like that early in his career. 

I think / hope that some of that softness naturally corrects itself.  I expect and hope that an early exit this year from the playoffs (which I expect will be our result) will harden our guys a bit.  The J's seem to be hard workers and they are getting better, but they are two YOUNG guys who have had a lot of success early, and it probably wouldn't be terrible if they kind of took it on the chin this year a bit to give them a bit of a chip on their shoulder.

So this experience will make them take a ton of step back threes and cause them to drive to the basket and flail around looking for a foul? 😁

[Surferdad]

Tatum is an immense talent but he definitely does not seem like a culture changing hero type folks.   Neither was Kevin McHale but he was a great player.   Neither was PP, a lot of guys are very good scorers and producers but are not leaders.

But Tatum is so young he still could become that guy.   I do think Brown and him compete in a way that is good for each other and the team.   But even Larry Bird or Russell would struggle to compete or motivate some of our guys.   The athletic talent just is not there in some cases, the mental ability is not there for whatever reason.

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities

LeBron?   LOL  LeBron is a great player but he is F on your scale.   He has openly quit on his team and thrown them under the bus.   He stacked teams so he could win titles.  He has got many a coach fired.   He has also forced teams into bad moves he liked and left them high and dry.

He is a transcendent great player, who produces at an astounding level.   But a leader?   Come on, get real....

Bingo.

[Who]

I see the complaint with Tatum too. What I believe it requires is a focus on tough minded physical supporting cast. I believe that type of supporting cast works best with a star like Tatum. Helps get the best out of that star and to be more aggressive / assertive / tough more often.

So said differently - the focus for me is on putting the right type of supporting cast around Tatum rather than trying to find a tougher star player to build around.

[Smartacus]

Assuming this is true and we are soft and in need of a cultural infusion of toughness who could possibly be players that we could target that could come in and set the tone?

Mentally Tough Tier List

S Tier - Mentally Unshakeable
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant (On the court not on Social Media)

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Kyle Lowry
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Lebron James
Zion Williamson
Julius Randle (Unless this year is an aberration)

B Tier - Supremely talented but can get in their own head
James Harden
Giannis Antetokoumpo
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Bradley Beal
Russell Westbrook
Donovan Mitchell
Jamal Murray
Devon Booker
Ja Morant
Joel Embiid
Zach Lavine
Nikola Vucevic
DeAaron Fox
Anthony Davis
RJ Barrett
Bam Adebayo
CJ McCollum
Domantas Sabonis

C Tier - Likely to lose mental composure or not talented enough to affect culture on a deep level
Kemba Walker
Paul George (Although he is improving)
Rudy Gobert
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben Simmons
Jrue Holiday
Trae Young
Pascal Siakam
Demar Derozan
Marcus Smart
Deangelo Russell
Gordon Hayward
Anthony Edwards
LaMelo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Draymond Green
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon
Mike Conley
OG Anunoby
Deandre Ayton(Could see him rising)
Jonas Valenciunas (Tough but might not move the needle)

Thoughts on the List
-Most players are not attainable. Any culture improvement would best come from internal development or a coaching change.
- The ideal course of action for improving the toughness culture would probably be to throw everything at either Lillard or Leonard.
- Kyle Lowry might be great as a Smart/Kemba replacement. 
- I put Middleton in A tier despite him lacking the talent of the others. Always dangerous in a playoff game.
- Draymond is in Trash Tier but he was only 2 or 3 years removed from A or even S Tier. Could be a sneaky great culture fixer option if nothing else is available.

This is a really interesting list.  Even though I am no Lebron fan, I don't see how he isn't in the S tier.

If LeBron performs in these playoffs and not the bubble title I'll move him up to S Tier. He and Chris Paul we're right on the border but I think their leadership styles can be a bit too overbearing at time.

[PhoSita]

Assuming this is true and we are soft and in need of a cultural infusion of toughness who could possibly be players that we could target that could come in and set the tone?

Mentally Tough Tier List

S Tier - Mentally Unshakeable
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant (On the court not on Social Media)

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Kyle Lowry
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Lebron James
Zion Williamson
Julius Randle (Unless this year is an aberration)

B Tier - Supremely talented but can get in their own head
James Harden
Giannis Antetokoumpo
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Bradley Beal
Russell Westbrook
Donovan Mitchell
Jamal Murray
Devon Booker
Ja Morant
Joel Embiid
Zach Lavine
Nikola Vucevic
DeAaron Fox
Anthony Davis
RJ Barrett
Bam Adebayo
CJ McCollum
Domantas Sabonis

C Tier - Likely to lose mental composure or not talented enough to affect culture on a deep level
Kemba Walker
Paul George (Although he is improving)
Rudy Gobert
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben Simmons
Jrue Holiday
Trae Young
Pascal Siakam
Demar Derozan
Marcus Smart
Deangelo Russell
Gordon Hayward
Anthony Edwards
Lamelo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Draymond Green
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon
Mike Conley
OG Anunoby
Deandre Ayton(Could see him rising)
Jonas Valenciunas (Tough but might not move the needle)

Thoughts on the List
-Most players are not attainable. Any culture improvement would best come from internal development or a coaching change.
- The ideal course of action for improving the toughness culture would probably be to throw everything at either Lillard or Leonard.
- Kyle Lowry might be great as a Smart/Kemba replacement. 
- I put Middleton in A tier despite him lacking the talent of the others. Always dangerous in a playoff game.
- Draymond is in Trash Tier but he was only 2 or 3 years removed from A or even S Tier. Could be a sneaky great culture fixer option if nothing else is available.

lol Zion and Khris Middleton have done exactly what to be on this list/

[nickagneta]

Assuming this is true and we are soft and in need of a cultural infusion of toughness who could possibly be players that we could target that could come in and set the tone?

Mentally Tough Tier List

S Tier - Mentally Unshakeable
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant (On the court not on Social Media)

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Kyle Lowry
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Lebron James
Zion Williamson
Julius Randle (Unless this year is an aberration)

B Tier - Supremely talented but can get in their own head
James Harden
Giannis Antetokoumpo
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Bradley Beal
Russell Westbrook
Donovan Mitchell
Jamal Murray
Devon Booker
Ja Morant
Joel Embiid
Zach Lavine
Nikola Vucevic
DeAaron Fox
Anthony Davis
RJ Barrett
Bam Adebayo
CJ McCollum
Domantas Sabonis

C Tier - Likely to lose mental composure or not talented enough to affect culture on a deep level
Kemba Walker
Paul George (Although he is improving)
Rudy Gobert
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben Simmons
Jrue Holiday
Trae Young
Pascal Siakam
Demar Derozan
Marcus Smart
Deangelo Russell
Gordon Hayward
Anthony Edwards
Lamelo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Draymond Green
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon
Mike Conley
OG Anunoby
Deandre Ayton(Could see him rising)
Jonas Valenciunas (Tough but might not move the needle)

Thoughts on the List
-Most players are not attainable. Any culture improvement would best come from internal development or a coaching change.
- The ideal course of action for improving the toughness culture would probably be to throw everything at either Lillard or Leonard.
- Kyle Lowry might be great as a Smart/Kemba replacement. 
- I put Middleton in A tier despite him lacking the talent of the others. Always dangerous in a playoff game.
- Draymond is in Trash Tier but he was only 2 or 3 years removed from A or even S Tier. Could be a sneaky great culture fixer option if nothing else is available.

lol Zion and Khris Middleton have done exactly what to be on this list/

Not trying to pile on but Lillard is unshakeable but former multiple time MVPs, multiple time champions and leaders of their teams Steph Curry and LeBron aren't unshakeable.

That makes zero sense to me.

[Donoghus]

What leadership qualities did Kryie exhibit in Boston besides illustrating that he wasn't quite ready to a be a leader?

[blink]

I am going to be on the fence here a bit and say I agree that the team is somewhat soft (I would also call it entitled), but not because of the stats that the original poster mentioned.  To me that original 'why' of the post isn't correct at all.  It actually proves the opposite. 

But at the same time you have to admit that just from an eye test, we have a bad game and don't always respond with better effort the next game.  A bad call will go against us, and we can't mentally move on fast enough.  Tatum, as talented as he is - and yes his ceiling is an MVP, is easily disrupted a bit mentally and will kind of complain too much and have bad body language.  It is kind of the softness that comes from immaturity and inexperience, and a bit of entitlement.  Both Smart and Jaylen have had similar issues, but to a lesser degree.  Even Paul Pierce was like that early in his career. 

I think / hope that some of that softness naturally corrects itself.  I expect and hope that an early exit this year from the playoffs (which I expect will be our result) will harden our guys a bit.  The J's seem to be hard workers and they are getting better, but they are two YOUNG guys who have had a lot of success early, and it probably wouldn't be terrible if they kind of took it on the chin this year a bit to give them a bit of a chip on their shoulder.

So this experience will make them take a ton of step back threes and cause them to drive to the basket and flail around looking for a foul? 😁

lol I guess I could have worded that one differently lol....Tp for the word play

[Smartacus]

Assuming this is true and we are soft and in need of a cultural infusion of toughness who could possibly be players that we could target that could come in and set the tone?

Mentally Tough Tier List

S Tier - Mentally Unshakeable
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Durant (On the court not on Social Media)

A tier - Strong willed, always dangerous, exhibits leadership qualities
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Kyle Lowry
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Lebron James
Zion Williamson
Julius Randle (Unless this year is an aberration)

B Tier - Supremely talented but can get in their own head
James Harden
Giannis Antetokoumpo
Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Bradley Beal
Russell Westbrook
Donovan Mitchell
Jamal Murray
Devon Booker
Ja Morant
Joel Embiid
Zach Lavine
Nikola Vucevic
DeAaron Fox
Anthony Davis
RJ Barrett
Bam Adebayo
CJ McCollum
Domantas Sabonis

C Tier - Likely to lose mental composure or not talented enough to affect culture on a deep level
Kemba Walker
Paul George (Although he is improving)
Rudy Gobert
Karl Anthony Towns
Ben Simmons
Jrue Holiday
Trae Young
Pascal Siakam
Demar Derozan
Marcus Smart
Deangelo Russell
Gordon Hayward
Anthony Edwards
Lamelo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Draymond Green
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon
Mike Conley
OG Anunoby
Deandre Ayton(Could see him rising)
Jonas Valenciunas (Tough but might not move the needle)

Thoughts on the List
-Most players are not attainable. Any culture improvement would best come from internal development or a coaching change.
- The ideal course of action for improving the toughness culture would probably be to throw everything at either Lillard or Leonard.
- Kyle Lowry might be great as a Smart/Kemba replacement. 
- I put Middleton in A tier despite him lacking the talent of the others. Always dangerous in a playoff game.
- Draymond is in Trash Tier but he was only 2 or 3 years removed from A or even S Tier. Could be a sneaky great culture fixer option if nothing else is available.

lol Zion and Khris Middleton have done exactly what to be on this list/

Not trying to pile on but Lillard is unshakeable but former multiple time MVPs, multiple time champions and leaders of their teams Steph Curry and LeBron aren't unshakeable.

That makes zero sense to me.

Pile away. I'll attempt to defend my choices but I see why you all disagree.

Curry has had some inexcusable reach-in fouls and turnovers in finals games. He chews on his mouth piece compulsively. He get's flustered when calls don't go his way. These unforced errors make me think Lillard has a clearer mind when the stakes are highest. Curry is the better player when all is said and done but Lillard is mentally tougher.

Same thing with LeBron. Whining at the refs and blowing free throws. Complaining about topics in the media. Is a good shooter but not automatic. Great player, not the worst leader. I still have him as a better overall player than Kawhi, but mentally tougher? Not by my definition.

 

[Kernewek]

I have done a bit more thinking on this and I think it might be better if we replace ‘soft’ with ‘complacent’.

Of course, this is all relative because you have to be an extreme athletic outlier to waltz your way to the NBA, let alone thrive in it.

But I still have to question the importance of this factor in winning games and championships when a player like Leonard outranks a player like LeBron. I don’t care who’s mentally tougher: I am sure both players would prefer being the best player on a championship winning team and James’s record outstrips Kawhi’s by a long shot.

[Who]

When I think of toughness I start off with physical toughness and it is hard to be a physically tough team when you play small lineups. When you play without big men.

When your two centers (Rob Williams, TT) are both 6-8. When your bench PFs are 6-6 (G-Will, Semi) and your starting PF (Tatum) is more of a finesse SF with good size.

When that is your starting point you are often being beaten physically and out-toughed in the paint. That forces you into a reactive rather than proactive stance.

It also puts a lot of pressure on your guards and wing players to make up the difference. Our PGs are all small guards who cannot do that which means we are relying heavily on our wings. Marcus Smart is our main instigator and tough guy.

It is a lot to ask smaller players to make up that difference night after night season after season. It is draining.

They need help. They need someone in the paint to offer more physicality and toughness. It's like the 90s Bulls after MJ returned but Horace Grant had left. They desperately needed Dennis Rodman to be that guy. To make them more competitive in the paint so that their smaller wing based core could succeed. They needed Rodman to stand-up to bigger lineups.

Can Rob Williams be that guy? Not if he is only playing 20-25mpg.

Can TT be that guy? Not without more help. LeBron gave him that protection in Cleveland and - make no mistake - having a 6-8 260lbs guy barrelling down the lane and delivering punishment on opponents is major physicality.

We can't keep expecting our guards and wings to overcome a physical toughness in the paint. They need more help.

[nickagneta]

When I think of toughness I start off with physical toughness and it is hard to be a physically tough team when you play small lineups. When you play without big men.

When your two centers (Rob Williams, TT) are both 6-8. When your bench PFs are 6-6 (G-Will, Semi) and your starting PF (Tatum) is more of a finesse SF with good size.

When that is your starting point you are often being beaten physically and out-toughed in the paint. That forces you into a reactive rather than proactive stance.

It also puts a lot of pressure on your guards and wing players to make up the difference. Our PGs are all small guards who cannot do that which means we are relying heavily on our wings. Marcus Smart is our main instigator and tough guy.

It is a lot to ask smaller players to make up that difference night after night season after season. It is draining.

They need help. They need someone in the paint to offer more physicality and toughness. It's like the 90s Bulls after MJ returned but Horace Grant had left. They desperately needed Dennis Rodman to be that guy. To make them more competitive in the paint so that their smaller wing based core could succeed. They needed Rodman to stand-up to bigger lineups.

Can Rob Williams be that guy? Not if he is only playing 20-25mpg.

Can TT be that guy? Not without more help. LeBron gave him that protection in Cleveland and - make no mistake - having a 6-8 260lbs guy barrelling down the lane and delivering punishment on opponents is major physicality.

We can't keep expecting our guards and wings to overcome a physical toughness in the paint. They need more help.

Good stuff as usual Who. I have to ask you, do you think Stevens is partly responsible for Tatum's lack of toughness?

Stevens constantly tries to hide Jayson on the defensive end by putting him on the worst 2 thru 4 players on the opposition while Brad puts Brown on the toughest opponent at those positions. Brown has pretty consistently been guarding PFs for a couple years now.

Would making Tatum guard tougher opposition make him tougher?