Author Topic: Bench Kemba  (Read 6464 times)

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Bench Kemba
« on: April 07, 2021, 11:18:49 AM »

Offline kraidstar

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2021, 11:37:51 AM »

Offline Diggles

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I would take a chance and bench him if I was coach.  Dangerous move, but might light a fire under the team. 

Diggles

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2021, 11:39:24 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Yeah, this isn't a realistic option, for many reasons.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2021, 11:48:59 AM »

Offline perks-a-beast

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I get no pleasure from dumping on Kemba because he seems like a great guy but he is absolutely hurting this team. When he doesn’t have it going scoring, he does nothing to help the team. Also seems to have poor on court chemistry with a lot of the players. He seems to be the only guard incapable of finding Timelord for oops.

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2021, 11:57:34 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote

I would take a chance and bench him if I was coach.  Dangerous move, but might light a fire under the team. 

 I don't know we are pretty much human Nomex Fibers.  Meaning our guys seem pretty fire resistant regardless of the circumstance.

Quote
Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise. 

Also, with Kemba sitting  a lot of games and back to backs we get to see this all the time by default and look at our record.

We have a 10-9 Record with him out this season.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/celtics-record-when-kemba-is-out-2021


and we are 15-17 with him this season


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-celtics-record-when-kemba-walker-plays-this-year


So the difference would be slight and marginal at best.   We might win more games but not by much.   This is even more depressing as he does not move the dial either way.  We will probably have to give a draft asset to move him and we need talent influx.   


Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2021, 12:06:13 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Kemba off the bench as instant offense is going to be his eventual role on this team.
I see no reason to postpone the inevitable

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2021, 12:07:23 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2021, 12:24:03 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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The J's + Kemba doesn't seem t be a fit. I will say "Kemba 6th man" would work. He would hurt other benches.

I'm big on Pritchard, but, I assume Stevens wouldn't start him until next year or whenever.

Smart
Brown
Fournier
Tatum
Robert

It's not that we haven't seen this group together when Walker is out except for Fournier

Walker
Pritchard
Langford
Kornet
Semi 

This year's team just isn't happening.

For a brief period this bench group "got it going"

Tatum+ Teague- Pritchard - Robert - Semi

This year's team needs a "good bench" that can carry them once in awhile, but won't lose ground either.

I think Walker off the bench would be a plus for the team.

When Smart is "perfect" which isn't that often, he "leads/runs the offense and does a good job.

The modern NBA "run the ball through whomever" is fine, but why not run it through a distributing point guard who "requires the ball"
just to see what happens.

What we're doing now isn't working and thus...chuck it for another approach.

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2021, 12:29:29 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Leaving out his first few games back returning from injury, Kemba's stats across the board are pretty much at his career averages. I understand the desire to bring him off the bench as an instant offense piece, but that is what Fournier was brought here for (and he was excelling in that role before H&SP knocked him out).

Anyway, I am responding to your message because I agree with your general point. If we fail to move him this offseason, then I would be 'okay' with Kemba being a super-6th man; but, if the idea is to try and move him, then we absolutely need to keep him as a starter. I've said it a million times, but this team's ceiling depends a lot on how good Kemba can be. And while he is basically at his career averages right now, we actually need him to be prime-Kemba to have any chance of competing in the playoffs.

I also don't think enough is being said of Brown and especially Tatum. Even though Brown has been solid, he disappears for far too long during important stretches. And don't even get me started on Tatum - dude is padding his stats to make the All-NBA incentives ($6M extra/yr) and he is basically prime Monta Ellis at this point. I basically feel the same as Perk does at this point.

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2021, 12:31:25 PM »

Offline footey

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Yeah, this isn't a realistic option, for many reasons.

Probably right, but sometimes you just have to go W T Frig. 

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2021, 12:59:37 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I know people are SURE Kemba is hurting the team when he's out there.  I agree there are eye-test reasons to think so.

But ....

Per NBAWowy

Kemba ON: 114 ORTG / 112 DRTG ... +2

Kemba OFF: 112 ORTG / 112 DRTG ... +0


Hrm....

But what about the other guys on the floor?

Kemba OFF, Tatum + Brown + Smart: 115 ORTG ... 112 DTRG ... +3

Kemba ON w/ Tatum + Brown: 116 ORTG ... 113 DRTG ... +3



So .... doesn't seem so cut and dry.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2021, 01:06:05 PM »

Offline td450

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Leaving out his first few games back returning from injury, Kemba's stats across the board are pretty much at his career averages. I understand the desire to bring him off the bench as an instant offense piece, but that is what Fournier was brought here for (and he was excelling in that role before H&SP knocked him out).

Anyway, I am responding to your message because I agree with your general point. If we fail to move him this offseason, then I would be 'okay' with Kemba being a super-6th man; but, if the idea is to try and move him, then we absolutely need to keep him as a starter. I've said it a million times, but this team's ceiling depends a lot on how good Kemba can be. And while he is basically at his career averages right now, we actually need him to be prime-Kemba to have any chance of competing in the playoffs.

I also don't think enough is being said of Brown and especially Tatum. Even though Brown has been solid, he disappears for far too long during important stretches. And don't even get me started on Tatum - dude is padding his stats to make the All-NBA incentives ($6M extra/yr) and he is basically prime Monta Ellis at this point. I basically feel the same as Perk does at this point.

To your point about Brown, I'm mystified as to how the team manages whether he is part of the offensive flow or not. Tatum, Walker and Smart are all prone to pounding the rock, and long stretches go by where Stevens seems to tolerate obviously stalled ball and player movement.

Is Brown standing in the corner because he has no choice, or is he being passive? I don't know. When players make good cuts, especially Brown, who is easily their most physical player, they rarely get the ball. I yell at my TV several times a game over this.

I am sick of watching him carve up teams in the first quarter, then not touch the ball for most of the rest of the game.


Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2021, 01:06:09 PM »

Offline ozgod

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The J's + Kemba doesn't seem t be a fit. I will say "Kemba 6th man" would work. He would hurt other benches.

I'm big on Pritchard, but, I assume Stevens wouldn't start him until next year or whenever.

Smart
Brown
Fournier
Tatum
Robert

It's not that we haven't seen this group together when Walker is out except for Fournier

Walker
Pritchard
Langford
Kornet
Semi 

This year's team just isn't happening.

For a brief period this bench group "got it going"

Tatum+ Teague- Pritchard - Robert - Semi

This year's team needs a "good bench" that can carry them once in awhile, but won't lose ground either.

I think Walker off the bench would be a plus for the team.

When Smart is "perfect" which isn't that often, he "leads/runs the offense and does a good job.

The modern NBA "run the ball through whomever" is fine, but why not run it through a distributing point guard who "requires the ball"
just to see what happens.

What we're doing now isn't working and thus...chuck it for another approach.

We keep talking about this like it was Kemba's first year but he played alongside Tatum and Brown for most of last year, including the playoffs when he was our best player the last 2 games against Philly. Here's his stats vs Philly:



In fact, Toronto were so worried about him last playoffs that they deployed a box and one to keep the ball out of his hands and rub him out of the game. A box and one is a zone-and-man to man hybrid deployed against teams with one great offensive player, to negate him and force the others to beat you. 4 guys in zone and one following Kemba everywhere. Kemba was the guy they were worried about, not JT. And it almost worked, they pushed us to 7 games. And Miami used it interchangeably to beat us since Toronto had a lot of success with it.

I don't necessarily agree with the "Kemba is a bad fit" narrative, it's too simplistic. He was a fine fit last year. He's just not shooting well right now and I think it's mental. He's become hesitant and indecisive. As the Jays have been ascending and required more usage, he has become inhibited and sometimes he defers to them too much. If you look at his splits between this year and last year:



You can see drops in both his FG% and 3FG% this year. His numbers were skewed by his first few games when he couldn't hit the side of a barn. But even taking that into account he's shot around 40% overall and 35% from 3 which is on the low end for a score first point guard.



By comparison Kyrie shot 51/40, Steph 48/40 and Harden 46/36. Even Tatum shot 45/38 and Brown 48/38. Kemba just needs to figure out why his efficiency has dropped. I don't know if it's the quality of shots he's getting - you could use the Hayward argument, but Hayward wasn't on the court for the last 3 games of the Philly series. Then again neither was Ben Simmons, we have to consider that too.

Also how many players have ended up being "bad fits" next to the Jays? Kyrie, Gordon, now Kemba? Everyone who plays next to the Jays becomes a wilting flower? At this point we will run out of players to pair with them if everyone is a bad fit.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 01:13:29 PM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2021, 01:10:27 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.

Leaving out his first few games back returning from injury, Kemba's stats across the board are pretty much at his career averages. I understand the desire to bring him off the bench as an instant offense piece, but that is what Fournier was brought here for (and he was excelling in that role before H&SP knocked him out).

Anyway, I am responding to your message because I agree with your general point. If we fail to move him this offseason, then I would be 'okay' with Kemba being a super-6th man; but, if the idea is to try and move him, then we absolutely need to keep him as a starter. I've said it a million times, but this team's ceiling depends a lot on how good Kemba can be. And while he is basically at his career averages right now, we actually need him to be prime-Kemba to have any chance of competing in the playoffs.

I also don't think enough is being said of Brown and especially Tatum. Even though Brown has been solid, he disappears for far too long during important stretches. And don't even get me started on Tatum - dude is padding his stats to make the All-NBA incentives ($6M extra/yr) and he is basically prime Monta Ellis at this point. I basically feel the same as Perk does at this point.

To your point about Brown, I'm mystified as to how the team manages whether he is part of the offensive flow or not. Tatum, Walker and Smart are all prone to pounding the rock, and long stretches go by where Stevens seems to tolerate obviously stalled ball and player movement.

Is Brown standing in the corner because he has no choice, or is he being passive? I don't know. When players make good cuts, especially Brown, who is easily their most physical player, they rarely get the ball. I yell at my TV several times a game over this.

I am sick of watching him carve up teams in the first quarter, then not touch the ball for most of the rest of the game.

Last night he was definitely being passive. Brown has had this habit since his rookie year where sometimes he drifts in and out of games. It first manifests itself on defense then it affects his offense. He did a lot of work to eliminate it early in the season when he was really switched on and aggressive, especially on the defensive end. But as the season has gone on, despite his making the All Star team, as the team's fortunes have fluctuated so has his mood. Last night it didn't help that the Cs, mainly Smart, were trying a lot of high risk passes trying to thread bounce passes to cutters and ending up turning the ball over. They had a lot more off ball movement last night than they have had in the past and it had started with the Houston game. But once they turned the ball over and Philly surged to 21-2 run in the 2nd quarter their heads dropped and that was the end of it.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Bench Kemba
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 01:35:47 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Tired of watching the brick show/turnstile parade. It demoralizes the team and takes shots away from Brown and Tatum.

Pritchard is the more efficient player right now. Start him! We need his efficiency with the high-volume scorers in Brown and Tatum. And we need Kemba's volume in the second unit, where he will also be less exposed.

Let's take the heat off Walker for a bit and see if he can get into a groove against other teams' benches. And, just maybe, he gets some confidence back and breaks free of this malaise.

This is a developmental year at this point. Need to keep him as a starter so that his trade value does not diminish anymore than it already has. Danny has to make it a priority to move him in the off-season. He’s been back for months, his shooting/defense is still mediocre and he does not fit in with this team.



 Look. We are not trading Kemba. He has no value whatsoever.  It was a terrible signing. Do whatever you can to improve thebteam.