Kemba’s got to go...

[nickagneta]

Most likely move, and I know a whole bunch of people don't want to hear this, is no move. Kemba will be a Celtic next year. Book it!

Yes Nick, like we had to book that our team was just in a bad mood and in fact was fine even when the sky was falling... Don't be so sure about what you feel sure...
Personally I think Danny knows some changes need to be done -it's not only media rethoric- and there is not many possibilities, the goner must be one or more of Kemba, Smart or TT. Kemba might still have more value than most think.
After some said that Kemba's deal was ideal because it ended on 2023 FA where big fish will be there. If it is really Danny' point, yes you are right, we may stend path, just draft our guy (and maybe not extend Fournier, just take TPE for a future expiring big contract). But I guess it will be hard position for Danny the next 2 years and it may distustthe Jays... It is also a risky bet if he doesn't catch the big fish (Giannis, Jokic or so...)

I could be wrong. I am wrong my fair share of the time and admit when I am, but I don't think I will be here.

To me, from an asset management position, it makes zero sense to salary dump Kemba while getting a massively inferior return. When you trade a dollar in this league, especially with top notch players, you best be getting at least a dollar back, not 4 quarters or 10 dimes or 75, 50 or 10 cents. Otherwise, you are hurting your team.

Like it or not, the stats point to the fact that Kemba is still a dang good player. His advanced stats show he is one of the better to best PGs in the league. His stats this year were extremely close to his career averages, a career in which he was a 4 time All-Star and an All-NBA player.

It's been proven that his arthritis in his knee is manageable and that it won't hinder his performances(even though much thought, as you said, that the sky was falling regarding his expected playing ability).

And contrary to what many say, I think he is an excellent fit next to the Jays. In Brad's system you want a PG that can score but can also create for others and know when it's time to defer to the two up and coming stars. Brad's system, quite frankly, would not work as well with a pass first PG that dominated the ball and that would stifle the creativity of two future offensive weapons.

Dumping Kemba and others to clear cap space to procure someone through free agency or to sign and trade for a player isn't going to happen because the return would be so bad because of all the other players you also lose.

So, looking at all this, I think Kemba returning is a pretty safe bet to make. Oh, and Danny Ainge said his core players were returning, so there is that too. I think the Celtics organization hold Kemba in much higher esteem than does a vocal portion of the fanbase.

But again, I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't think I am. I think Ainge is more inclined to think injuries, Covid, a short off-season, no Summer League, no Red Claws, a shortened training camp and preseason and a condensed schedule is more to blame for this season than members of the core of the team. So, I think he will bring back Kemba.

[Rikibellevie]

Most likely move, and I know a whole bunch of people don't want to hear this, is no move. Kemba will be a Celtic next year. Book it!

Yes Nick, like we had to book that our team was just in a bad mood and in fact was fine even when the sky was falling... Don't be so sure about what you feel sure...
Personally I think Danny knows some changes need to be done -it's not only media rethoric- and there is not many possibilities, the goner must be one or more of Kemba, Smart or TT. Kemba might still have more value than most think.
After some said that Kemba's deal was ideal because it ended on 2023 FA where big fish will be there. If it is really Danny' point, yes you are right, we may stend path, just draft our guy (and maybe not extend Fournier, just take TPE for a future expiring big contract). But I guess it will be hard position for Danny the next 2 years and it may distustthe Jays... It is also a risky bet if he doesn't catch the big fish (Giannis, Jokic or so...)

I could be wrong. I am wrong my fair share of the time and admit when I am, but I don't think I will be here.

To me, from an asset management position, it makes zero sense to salary dump Kemba while getting a massively inferior return. When you trade a dollar in this league, especially with top notch players, you best be getting at least a dollar back, not 4 quarters or 10 dimes or 75, 50 or 10 cents. Otherwise, you are hurting your team.

Like it or not, the stats point to the fact that Kemba is still a dang good player. His advanced stats show he is one of the better to best PGs in the league. His stats this year were extremely close to his career averages, a career in which he was a 4 time All-Star and an All-NBA player.

It's been proven that his arthritis in his knee is manageable and that it won't hinder his performances(even though much thought, as you said, that the sky was falling regarding his expected playing ability).

And contrary to what many say, I think he is an excellent fit next to the Jays. In Brad's system you want a PG that can score but can also create for others and know when it's time to defer to the two up and coming stars. Brad's system, quite frankly, would not work as well with a pass first PG that dominated the ball and that would stifle the creativity of two future offensive weapons.

Dumping Kemba and others to clear cap space to procure someone through free agency or to sign and trade for a player isn't going to happen because the return would be so bad because of all the other players you also lose.

So, looking at all this, I think Kemba returning is a pretty safe bet to make. Oh, and Danny Ainge said his core players were returning, so there is that too. I think the Celtics organization hold Kemba in much higher esteem than does a vocal portion of the fanbase.

But again, I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't think I am. I think Ainge is more inclined to think injuries, Covid, a short off-season, no Summer League, no Red Claws, a shortened training camp and preseason and a condensed schedule is more to blame for this season than members of the core of the team. So, I think he will bring back Kemba.

I agree on most of what you say (not the "bad years happen" rethoric if it leads to no change). But if Danny can find a way to replace Walker by 2 less talented but more usefull player (aka a good defensive and creative PG as Ball and a PF Shooter as Markannen/Barnes - I forget about Collins who isn't sustainable-or even a non shooter as Nance Jr...), it would build a better team chemistry, new possibilities for coach Stevens (better to switch, better to pass the ball : a much more CBS game than what we see) and a team where Tatum can play at the 3...
As you said Walker is still a very good player and other GM know that. But Tatum and Brown are already pure scorers and we try to build the game around them. I prefer this very good option 3 and 4, bringing things the team need, than a better player in Kemba but who eats the ball and isn't a real creator for others...
After I know you can't just switch Walker ag Ball and Markannen (even if both are on the line this summer), but if Danny could find a way to do that, I think he should do it (even giving 2 or 3 first with it).

[Vermont Green]

I love Spotrac, but are you sure these are the proper figures? Maybe I am missing something, but I am just not sure why a team like the Spurs - who show to have about $58M in committed salaries next season - do not count as a team with cap space. I mean, for the Cs, it shows us having -$155M in practical cap space. Like, I realize we are going likely be over the tax next season, but I don't think we are currently $155M over the cap. The player/salaries appear to be doubled when you click on the team.

I took a closer look at San Antonio and I can't explain the Spotrac numbers for them.  You appear to be right that there may be more teams with some space than the quick scan of the Spotrac summary reveals.  If that is the case, great, more options the better for getting value out of a potential trade of Kemba.

I am not against trading Kemba, especially if we can get a decent big (which we probably won't) or even just some good depth players but with contracts that expire sooner or otherwise allow the money to spread out a little.  I would be surprised though.  There is no sense in trading him just to trade him.  He has played well, probably not Max-contract good, but he has been good.  I am sure there will be plenty of effort by Danny and some level of interest around the league.  Teams wanted Hayward at $30M, why not Kemba at $36M.

[Vermont Green]

I agree on most of what you say (not the "bad years happen" rethoric if it leads to no change). But if Danny can find a way to replace Walker by 2 less talented but more usefull player (aka a good defensive and creative PG as Ball and a PF Shooter as Markannen/Barnes - I forget about Collins who isn't sustainable-or even a non shooter as Nance Jr...), it would build a better team chemistry, new possibilities for coach Stevens (better to switch, better to pass the ball : a much more CBS game than what we see) and a team where Tatum can play at the 3...
As you said Walker is still a very good player and other GM know that. But Tatum and Brown are already pure scorers and we try to build the game around them. I prefer this very good option 3 and 4, bringing things the team need, than a better player in Kemba but who eats the ball and isn't a real creator for others...
After I know you can't just switch Walker ag Ball and Markannen (even if both are on the line this summer), but if Danny could find a way to do that, I think he should do it (even giving 2 or 3 first with it).

Some how trade Walker and get back Ball and Markkanen?  Wow.  OK.  That would be Oiken Hyvaa (that is Finnish for really good).  I would be thrilled with just Markkanen.  I am not so high on Ball in general but in the context of this deal, I could live with it easily.

[nickagneta]

I agree on most of what you say (not the "bad years happen" rethoric if it leads to no change). But if Danny can find a way to replace Walker by 2 less talented but more usefull player (aka a good defensive and creative PG as Ball and a PF Shooter as Markannen/Barnes - I forget about Collins who isn't sustainable-or even a non shooter as Nance Jr...), it would build a better team chemistry, new possibilities for coach Stevens (better to switch, better to pass the ball : a much more CBS game than what we see) and a team where Tatum can play at the 3...
As you said Walker is still a very good player and other GM know that. But Tatum and Brown are already pure scorers and we try to build the game around them. I prefer this very good option 3 and 4, bringing things the team need, than a better player in Kemba but who eats the ball and isn't a real creator for others...
After I know you can't just switch Walker ag Ball and Markannen (even if both are on the line this summer), but if Danny could find a way to do that, I think he should do it (even giving 2 or 3 first with it).

Some how trade Walker and get back Ball and Markkanen?  Wow.  OK.  That would be Oiken Hyvaa (that is Finnish for really good).  I would be thrilled with just Markkanen.  I am not so high on Ball in general but in the context of this deal, I could live with it easily.

There's probably a better chance of 10 members of this site getting hit by lightning tomorrow than there is Ball and Markkanen being on the the Celtics next year. Both are restricted free agents, the C's won't ever be able to get low enough in salary to sign them both outright and, as has been said across this site for weeks, a sign and trade isn't happening, nevermind two.

[Rikibellevie]

Even in a fantasy world it would be difficult but say we add Smart in the balance :

SA : Kemba
NO : Smart+ Celtics 16
Chicago SA Lottery 13
Boston : Ball (ST at 4Y20M) Markanen (ST at 4Y15M) and Poeltl

Of course it depends on what other teams offer for Markanen and Ball, but as it is well known they are probable goners, it may be more than enough... Even an overpay from us. And then we can still sign Fournier or someone else with the relicant Hayward TPE...

[nickagneta]

Even in a fantasy world it would be difficult but say we add Smart in the balance :

SA : Kemba
NO : Smart+ Celtics 16
Chicago SA Lottery 13
Boston : Ball (ST at 4Y20M) Markanen (ST at 4Y15M) and Poeltl

Of course it depends on what other teams offer for Markanen and Ball, but as it is well known they are probable goners, it may be more than enough... Even an overpay from us. And then we can still sign Fournier or someone else with the relicant Hayward TPE...

As long as we are in fantasy world why not sign and trade for Kawhi by sending out Kemba, sign and trade for John Collins by sending out Smart and Thompson and then send Edwards, Nesmith and Langford to Dallas for Doncic. Re-sign Fournier and send the Hayward TPE and a bucket of balls to the Pels for Zion Williamson.

[Rikibellevie]

Even in a fantasy world it would be difficult but say we add Smart in the balance :

SA : Kemba
NO : Smart+ Celtics 16
Chicago SA Lottery 13
Boston : Ball (ST at 4Y20M) Markanen (ST at 4Y15M) and Poeltl

Of course it depends on what other teams offer for Markanen and Ball, but as it is well known they are probable goners, it may be more than enough... Even an overpay from us. And then we can still sign Fournier or someone else with the relicant Hayward TPE...

As long as we are in fantasy world why not sign and trade for Kawhi by sending out Kemba, sign and trade for John Collins by sending out Smart and Thompson and then send Edwards, Nesmith and Langford to Dallas for Doncic.

Lol. Don't be mad Nick. I don't get your point. Proposing trade ideas is a part of this forum. And all of them are fantasy, more or less. I may say stupid things, I also rooted last year for Nesmith and Maledon in draft and for TT and Teague in FA, I wasn't so far this time from Danny mind (even if it wasn't only great decision). I don't think it is dumbs propositions, or tell me where Markanen is the next Kawhi and Ball the next Doncic.... Your answer has no sense, sorry. Or which team is horribly screwed in this proposal (I think we are the team with the baddest +/- just talent wise). I know 2 ST in a same deal is very hard to get and it probably never was done before... I don't know if it is even allowed or if the salaries may match (but from this point I don't think 15M for Markanen and 20M for Ball is so disconected with their value, which is Kemba salary).
I imagine it may be a possibilty (all trade ideas are just fantasy), at least a proposition.  Your answer has no sense and this time you speak wrong, quiet condescendent, I hope you will admit it, then... Nothing against you Nick, just tell what I think.

[tonydelk]

I'm a little late to the party but I agree and disagree.  Will the C's be better off trading Kemba for nothing?  No.  They can't sign a max FA if they got rid of Kemba and they will not get value for Kemba.  Is it better to hold him if you can't get assets that make the team better.  If Fournier leaves and you get rid of Kemba you have all young guys left and the number 7/8 seeded team if everyone stays healthy.  If one of the J's go down you are a lotter team.  This team is not better trading Kemba for depth pieces.  They are only better if they get another star in return.  I don't see any disgruntled stars outside of maybe Russ that fit that bill. 

[Big333223]

There's probably a better chance of 10 members of this site getting hit by lightning tomorrow than there is Ball and Markkanen being on the the Celtics next year. Both are restricted free agents, the C's won't ever be able to get low enough in salary to sign them both outright and, as has been said across this site for weeks, a sign and trade isn't happening, nevermind two.

I haven't been around much so I missed most of that conversation. Is there some construction of a Kemba-for-Lonzo s&t that could actually work for the C's?

[nickagneta]

There's probably a better chance of 10 members of this site getting hit by lightning tomorrow than there is Ball and Markkanen being on the the Celtics next year. Both are restricted free agents, the C's won't ever be able to get low enough in salary to sign them both outright and, as has been said across this site for weeks, a sign and trade isn't happening, nevermind two.

I haven't been around much so I missed most of that conversation. Is there some construction of a Kemba-for-Lonzo s&t that could actually work for the C's?

A sign and trade hardcaps the team at the apron. The team will be going way over that so a S&T won't be happening.

[nickagneta]

Even in a fantasy world it would be difficult but say we add Smart in the balance :

SA : Kemba
NO : Smart+ Celtics 16
Chicago SA Lottery 13
Boston : Ball (ST at 4Y20M) Markanen (ST at 4Y15M) and Poeltl

Of course it depends on what other teams offer for Markanen and Ball, but as it is well known they are probable goners, it may be more than enough... Even an overpay from us. And then we can still sign Fournier or someone else with the relicant Hayward TPE...

As long as we are in fantasy world why not sign and trade for Kawhi by sending out Kemba, sign and trade for John Collins by sending out Smart and Thompson and then send Edwards, Nesmith and Langford to Dallas for Doncic.

Lol. Don't be mad Nick. I don't get your point. Proposing trade ideas is a part of this forum. And all of them are fantasy, more or less. I may say stupid things, I also rooted last year for Nesmith and Maledon in draft and for TT and Teague in FA, I wasn't so far this time from Danny mind (even if it wasn't only great decision). I don't think it is dumbs propositions, or tell me where Markanen is the next Kawhi and Ball the next Doncic.... Your answer has no sense, sorry. Or which team is horribly screwed in this proposal (I think we are the team with the baddest +/- just talent wise). I know 2 ST in a same deal is very hard to get and it probably never was done before... I don't know if it is even allowed or if the salaries may match (but from this point I don't think 15M for Markanen and 20M for Ball is so disconected with their value, which is Kemba salary).
I imagine it may be a possibilty (all trade ideas are just fantasy), at least a proposition.  Your answer has no sense and this time you speak wrong, quiet condescendent, I hope you will admit it, then... Nothing against you Nick, just tell what I think.

Sorry, Riki. My bad for the attitude but I just told you sign and trades wouldn't be happening and I thought I had told you in the past why, so when I saw you immediately proposing 2 sign and trades it aggravated me.

I shouldn't have done that. I apologize.

[Rikibellevie]

Even in a fantasy world it would be difficult but say we add Smart in the balance :

SA : Kemba
NO : Smart+ Celtics 16
Chicago SA Lottery 13
Boston : Ball (ST at 4Y20M) Markanen (ST at 4Y15M) and Poeltl

Of course it depends on what other teams offer for Markanen and Ball, but as it is well known they are probable goners, it may be more than enough... Even an overpay from us. And then we can still sign Fournier or someone else with the relicant Hayward TPE...

As long as we are in fantasy world why not sign and trade for Kawhi by sending out Kemba, sign and trade for John Collins by sending out Smart and Thompson and then send Edwards, Nesmith and Langford to Dallas for Doncic.

Lol. Don't be mad Nick. I don't get your point. Proposing trade ideas is a part of this forum. And all of them are fantasy, more or less. I may say stupid things, I also rooted last year for Nesmith and Maledon in draft and for TT and Teague in FA, I wasn't so far this time from Danny mind (even if it wasn't only great decision). I don't think it is dumbs propositions, or tell me where Markanen is the next Kawhi and Ball the next Doncic.... Your answer has no sense, sorry. Or which team is horribly screwed in this proposal (I think we are the team with the baddest +/- just talent wise). I know 2 ST in a same deal is very hard to get and it probably never was done before... I don't know if it is even allowed or if the salaries may match (but from this point I don't think 15M for Markanen and 20M for Ball is so disconected with their value, which is Kemba salary).
I imagine it may be a possibilty (all trade ideas are just fantasy), at least a proposition.  Your answer has no sense and this time you speak wrong, quiet condescendent, I hope you will admit it, then... Nothing against you Nick, just tell what I think.

Sorry, Riki. My bad for the attitude but I just told you sign and trades wouldn't be happening and I thought I had told you in the past why, so when I saw you immediately proposing 2 sign and trades it aggravated me.

I shouldn't have done that. I apologize.

No prob Nick. We all have the same passion for the celtics (most of us at least); so 0 stress in this forum 

[dannyboy35]

Most likely move, and I know a whole bunch of people don't want to hear this, is no move. Kemba will be a Celtic next year. Book it!

Yes Nick, like we had to book that our team was just in a bad mood and in fact was fine even when the sky was falling... Don't be so sure about what you feel sure...
Personally I think Danny knows some changes need to be done -it's not only media rethoric- and there is not many possibilities, the goner must be one or more of Kemba, Smart or TT. Kemba might still have more value than most think.
After some said that Kemba's deal was ideal because it ended on 2023 FA where big fish will be there. If it is really Danny' point, yes you are right, we may stend path, just draft our guy (and maybe not extend Fournier, just take TPE for a future expiring big contract). But I guess it will be hard position for Danny the next 2 years and it may distustthe Jays... It is also a risky bet if he doesn't catch the big fish (Giannis, Jokic or so...)

I could be wrong. I am wrong my fair share of the time and admit when I am, but I don't think I will be here.

To me, from an asset management position, it makes zero sense to salary dump Kemba while getting a massively inferior return. When you trade a dollar in this league, especially with top notch players, you best be getting at least a dollar back, not 4 quarters or 10 dimes or 75, 50 or 10 cents. Otherwise, you are hurting your team.

Like it or not, the stats point to the fact that Kemba is still a dang good player. His advanced stats show he is one of the better to best PGs in the league. His stats this year were extremely close to his career averages, a career in which he was a 4 time All-Star and an All-NBA player.

It's been proven that his arthritis in his knee is manageable and that it won't hinder his performances(even though much thought, as you said, that the sky was falling regarding his expected playing ability).

And contrary to what many say, I think he is an excellent fit next to the Jays. In Brad's system you want a PG that can score but can also create for others and know when it's time to defer to the two up and coming stars. Brad's system, quite frankly, would not work as well with a pass first PG that dominated the ball and that would stifle the creativity of two future offensive weapons.

Dumping Kemba and others to clear cap space to procure someone through free agency or to sign and trade for a player isn't going to happen because the return would be so bad because of all the other players you also lose.

So, looking at all this, I think Kemba returning is a pretty safe bet to make. Oh, and Danny Ainge said his core players were returning, so there is that too. I think the Celtics organization hold Kemba in much higher esteem than does a vocal portion of the fanbase.

But again, I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't think I am. I think Ainge is more inclined to think injuries, Covid, a short off-season, no Summer League, no Red Claws, a shortened training camp and preseason and a condensed schedule is more to blame for this season than members of the core of the team. So, I think he will bring back Kemba.

I agree on most of what you say (not the "bad years happen" rethoric if it leads to no change). But if Danny can find a way to replace Walker by 2 less talented but more usefull player (aka a good defensive and creative PG as Ball and a PF Shooter as Markannen/Barnes - I forget about Collins who isn't sustainable-or even a non shooter as Nance Jr...), it would build a better team chemistry, new possibilities for coach Stevens (better to switch, better to pass the ball : a much more CBS game than what we see) and a team where Tatum can play at the 3...
As you said Walker is still a very good player and other GM know that. But Tatum and Brown are already pure scorers and we try to build the game around them. I prefer this very good option 3 and 4, bringing things the team need, than a better player in Kemba but who eats the ball and isn't a real creator for others...
After I know you can't just switch Walker ag Ball and Markannen (even if both are on the line this summer), but if Danny could find a way to do that, I think he should do it (even giving 2 or 3 first with it).

   I’d prefer this too. I would love to have a defense where we are t hiding a point guard. Up until this year they really did sn amazing job of this for years. This would tell me Brad is a really good defensive coach or the players are very good at understanding it , or both. ( aside from effort and athleticism of course)
  But I think the coach needs to adjust to his talent and not have to only take players that fit his system. I’m  sure it’s not an issue if he’s smart . I just wish we moved the ball more and moved WITHOUT the ball more.
   I also think smart for Lonzo is a great deal for both teams. More of a sure thing for New Orleans but locking in a young defensive  big point guard at a manageable price I think would be  amazing.

[Big333223]

There's probably a better chance of 10 members of this site getting hit by lightning tomorrow than there is Ball and Markkanen being on the the Celtics next year. Both are restricted free agents, the C's won't ever be able to get low enough in salary to sign them both outright and, as has been said across this site for weeks, a sign and trade isn't happening, nevermind two.

I haven't been around much so I missed most of that conversation. Is there some construction of a Kemba-for-Lonzo s&t that could actually work for the C's?

A sign and trade hardcaps the team at the apron. The team will be going way over that so a S&T won't be happening.

If it turned out that New Orleans really wasn't interested in Lonzo but wanted a Kemba-type player and was cool with a straight swap of the two players where Lonzo signs for $10-12 mil less than Kemba is making... can it not be done or are you saying it just isn't something the C's are likely to want to do?

Real question, btw. I'm trying to get my brain around the cap stuff.