The Chris Paul Effect

[Moranis]

At the start of the payoffs, there was a lot of talk about whose legacy would be most helped by a championship and people were talking about Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Harden... Not many people were mentioning Chris Paul. But if the Suns win it all this year with Chris Paul leading the way, his legacy is completely different than it was a year ago.

Is it though?  I mean he is generally regarded as a top 5/6 PG all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, Kidd) and I don't think a title really changes his positioning on the list at all.

I think a ring would be a big point of difference for many in the Stockton v CP3 debate

It shouldn't I like CP3 besides the obverse flopping but Stockton is so far ahead in steals and guarantee CP3 and the Suns aren't winning it this year vs the Jordan Bulls Stock went up against.A lot of Stocks problem is being too quiet and showing up at the games in a minivan full of his kids. Ask Gary Payton or Chris Webber. Payton's praise of Stock and having him induct him as like the two total opposites of demeanor.   Those Utah teams were my second favorite to Larry's Celtic teams. I don't think people realize how good Stock was, he was an assasin and granted he worked in a system that totally maximized him.

This is where I'm at as well.  I will say Chris Paul was tremendous last night, but I don't think many believe they are beating a healthy Lakers or Clippers team.  If they do end up winning it still counts as a title, but not all titles are created equal either. 

I had Paul 5th all time entering the playoffs, and he will be 5th all time when the playoffs end (and would have been there had they lost to the Lakers in the 1st round).  I have Magic, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Paul, Thomas, Kidd, and Payton as my top 8 (no one else is all that close, sorry Cousy).  Zeke would be higher had he managed to play longer, but that injury in 91 really shrunk the back end of his career and took away a lot of his effectiveness.

No Steve Nash? I personally would put Nash and Iverson above kidd and Payton

Nash was so bad defensively, I can't put him with the all time greats.  He also had a relatively short peak (comparatively).  So while he played a long time he was really only an uber-elite player for like 5 or 6 years.  Him and Cousy are probably 9 and 10 though. 

[Who]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

[Goldstar88]

It's more than Chris Paul magically walking on the floor and bring the Sun's to the promised land.

That Sun's team gave themselves to him and his style of basketball. He convinced them... and then trained them to play a certain style of basketball. Because the years before CP3 that team was mostly ineffective.

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 

   

I’m pretty confident that the Celtics young players would listen to CP3. Chris is not exactly a Brad Stevens personality type and he wouldn’t let them to do otherwise.

[RJ87]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

TP. This post should be stickied.

[footey]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

TP, Who. This is very rational analysis of what we experienced last season and why.   

[Ogaju]

I haven’t seen any evidence that the Jays are putting in the work for more team oriented ball. Please provide the evidence that you have on this matter.

What is in the public sphere is their pilgrimage to off-season training camps that cater to individual play. These pilgrimages have worked to improve their individual skills which they are eager to display at the cost of team play.

[kraidstar]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

Yeah the C's showed lots of character going out clubbing during the pandemic. Half the reason for our lack of shooting and passing was because our rotation guys were out getting drunk and chasing tail instead of following the rules and doing their jobs. Then they get caught up in covid protocol and Waters and Edwards are playing heavy minutes.

And rewatch that blowout against the Thunder and then tell me there was not a lack of character.

Talent doesn’t matter when leadership and effort are as pathetic as they were last year. And then the rumors filter out that they need a black former player as coach because Stevens couldn't relate to them - aka another excuse for their lack of professionalism. Udoka will have his hands full trying to change the culture here.

[Who]

I haven’t seen any evidence that the Jays are putting in the work for more team oriented ball. Please provide the evidence that you have on this matter.

What is in the public sphere is their pilgrimage to off-season training camps that cater to individual play. These pilgrimages have worked to improve their individual skills which they are eager to display at the cost of team play.

The evidence is their improvement year to year.

Look at Jaylen Brown in particular and how far he has come in terms of improving (a) his outside shooting (b) his passing (c) his ball-handling.

All these elements lend to superior contributions both in team offense and in individualistic offense. And Jaylen has seen improvements in both as a result.

They tend to start off as individualistic offensive improvements and later develop into more team offense. So think of Jaylen Brown's ball-handling and passing. He became better at putting the ball on the floor and driving first. Then he gradually improved his passing off the dribble. Then through experience he became better at pattern recognition in seeing where the passing opportunities are. And now he gives the team a couple of drive and kick opportunities every night. Starting from the individual standpoint but developing into more well-rounded balance between individual and team.

It is like someone telling you a piece of information. Then you learning it and understanding it. Then figuring out how to apply / use that information. It is a process.

It is clear to see that process happening in terms of skill-development.

[Rosco917]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

TP, Who. This is very rational analysis of what we experienced last season and why.

Time will tell as both enter their individual primes. We, as long time fanatics should not be blinded by gaudy stats and bling...other than the "bling" of a championship ring. There is a possibility that the chemistry will never change and both J's will never be leader enough to be a part of a team atmosphere that brings a championship to Boston. Great players develop players around them and not avoid them.

[RJ87]

The question should be, could the ISO crazy young Celtics be persuaded to follow a script of ball movement, team first basketball? It may take a few points off individual scoring averages and lose certain players endorsements. I'm not so sure this team would tolerate that. 
 

I do not believe it was a lack of willingness or character or selfishness that has created the iso-heavy offense of last year. Instead it was two key elements:

(1) A lack of quality passers around Tatum and Jaylen. Particularly the lack of big man passing (and under-utilization of Rob Williams as a big man passer by our coach) and the lack of playmaking wings exposed by the lack of Gordon Hayward. You can't have good ball movement without good passers. There was a lack of talent here rather than a lack of character.

And a lack of quality shooters around Tatum and Jaylen. Shooting enables ball movement because it stretches the defense out and creates more space and superior passing angles. The lack of shooting allowed opposing teams to clog things up for Boston's offense and only worsened / highlighted the lack of shooting & passing talent.

(2) Tatum and Jaylen as a young players have games more keyed around individualistic offensive contributions (shot creation) than team offense based (passing, shooting, movement) contributions. So their games are naturally more individualistic and are trying to develop into more team orientated players although they will likely always be more slanted towards individualism. And this is normal both for young players in general and individualistic orientated players.

Both guys have shown a willingness to work on & develop their ball-handling and passing. It just not their natural games. Scoring is. So it is a work in progress and takes time and lots of it to develop these skills to a high enough level.

The key is not to slam these guys for things that are not within their current skill-sets but instead to surround them with teammates who help compensate for this. Extra onus on passing and shooting - guys who can facilitate the offense and make their lives easier as they continue to grow.

Last year's team was a direct failure in this regard.

TP, Who. This is very rational analysis of what we experienced last season and why.

Time will tell as both enter their individual primes. We, as long time fanatics should not be blinded by gaudy stats and bling...other than the "bling" of a championship ring. There is a possibility that the chemistry will never change and both J's will never be leader enough to be a part of a team atmosphere that brings a championship to Boston. Great players develop players around them and not avoid them.

It's not about being blinded, it's about basic development. This fanbase has been spoiled because the Jays have been so good at such a young age, they're expected to have all the nuance and leadership that guys have who've been in the league twice as long.

For instance, Tatum averaged 4.3 assists this season, his 4th in the league. Do you know what Jimmy Butler averaged his 4th season? 3.3 and he was 25 years old. Paul George in his 4th year? 3.5. Actually, PG averaged more the 5 assists per game for the first time in his career this past season. Durant? 2.7 assists in year 4. Kawhi averaged 2.5.

My point is that it takes players time to develop and it's usually aided by experience. People want perfection and leadership and greatness but no one has the stomach for the development part.

[gouki88]

This is not going to be a popular thing to say, but when I see a 36-year-old dominating in the playoffs and looking the quickest and most explosive he's looked in years, all I can think of is that something fishy is going on. The same is true of a player who tears his achilles tendon in his 30s and somehow comes back looking better than ever, or (to use an older reference) just like a football running back who rushes for 2000 yards the first year after tearing an ACL. These guys work hard and all, but I have seen too much over the past 25 years to believe these things are only a product of hard work, natural ability, and grit. Sorry to be a downer but I felt compelled to say it.

The reality is they’re all doing it.