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Would you trade Brown straight-up for Harden?

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Author Topic: Harden For Brown?  (Read 2836 times)

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Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2021, 03:41:31 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Weíre currently a .500 team with Brown, albeit without Kemba. What are we if we trade Brown for Harden? Does anybody really see us losing to the Pistons tonight if Harden is playing instead of Brown?

Hardenís PIPM is just shy of 7 compared to Brownís 0.7. Harden is averaging 37.0 PPG, the best in the league, and averaging 11.0 APG, only behind Jokic and Westbrook. Harden is also averaging 5.0 three pointers per game.

This is a no-brainer, folks. Harden gives us a shot at a championship THIS year and next. Without Harden, weíre possibly a borderline playoff team...

I donít like Harden, but I like championship runs more than I dislike Harden.

How many Harden-led teams have been actual contenders?

I see this sentiment thrown around a bunch and I find it inherently unfair.

First off, what makes a ďcontenderĒ?

Secondly, there are a bunch of counter-examples to this point if you look hard enough. I mean, pre-2008, how many Pierce-led teams were contenders? Or prior to Cassell & Sprewell, KG had nothing but first round exits to his resume. Could we have used this argument against acquiring KG for Al Jefferson?

Harden is a great player and this attempt to diminish that is not credible. There are many great players who did not win championships and that does not mean they were not great. Players like Barkley, Stockton, Malone. Even teh greats that won multiple championships like  Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Pierce, KG, Allen, and Lebron needed help and time. Put Harden in the right situation maybe he wins maybe he does not, but the idea that he cannot win because he was not won yet is unsupported.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2021, 05:48:34 AM »

Offline bopna

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Do It.

This team needs an ALPHA and Tatum nor Brown aare not the answer.

Both will peak as an all star but in this league, only superstars win titles.  JB and Tatum will never be elite.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2021, 06:21:28 AM »

Offline cltc5

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Iím ready to give them Tatum.  Iím not sure this kid will ever become a rim attacker like Jaylen is.  He seems to be in love with iso and fadeaway.  This team needs someone to run the offense.  We get down and everyone just starts playing hero ball and no one on this team is good enough to take over like that.  I mean the Jís are who this team is built around and yet they still cannot move the needle.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2021, 06:24:38 AM »

Offline cltc5

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Harden is a top 10 player, no doubt, but he is a headcass..I donít want that on this team

These excuses are some of the lamest I ever hear.  The guy is an elite scorer.  You put your feelings aside about stuff like that when youíre trying to win.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2021, 11:42:14 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I'd rather actually be able to root for my favorite team, so no.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2021, 12:41:59 PM »

Offline tonydelk

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Harden is a top 10 player, no doubt, but he is a headcass..I donít want that on this team

These excuses are some of the lamest I ever hear.  The guy is an elite scorer.  You put your feelings aside about stuff like that when youíre trying to win.

Yeah because it was so much fun watching the elite player Kyrie.  Worst two years of Celtics basketball in a long time.  Made me miss Eric Montross.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2021, 12:47:09 PM »

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Harden is a top 10 player, no doubt, but he is a headcass..I donít want that on this team

These excuses are some of the lamest I ever hear.  The guy is an elite scorer.  You put your feelings aside about stuff like that when youíre trying to win.

Yeah because it was so much fun watching the elite player Kyrie.  Worst two years of Celtics basketball in a long time.  Made me miss Eric Montross.
Harden is in a different universe compared to Kyrie offensively.
Jaylen for All-NBA

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2021, 02:30:24 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Harden is a top 10 player, no doubt, but he is a headcass..I donít want that on this team

These excuses are some of the lamest I ever hear.  The guy is an elite scorer.  You put your feelings aside about stuff like that when youíre trying to win.

Yeah because it was so much fun watching the elite player Kyrie.  Worst two years of Celtics basketball in a long time.  Made me miss Eric Montross.
Harden is in a different universe compared to Kyrie offensively.

James Harden may well be the best basketball player in the world right now. He has an argument against Giannis Antetokounmpo, LeBron James, Kevin Durant (or Kawhi Leonard).

But it's painful to give up a 24-year-old upcoming All Star for a 31-year-old. You only do that if you're confident that you can assemble a legit title contender right now. Currently we don't have the depth. And then giving up Brown. Aside from Tatum you're not giving Harden much to work with honestly.

I think Brown + Walker straight up for Harden + Gordon is fair value, but that might even be an overpay if the reports about what other teams are not willing to offer are true. And even though I think it's fair, I'm not sure whether we have enough depth left.

If we could trade Walker + prospects + picks for Harden by including a 3rd team then I'm not hesitating. Get some depth, include McLemore and a power forward in to the deal. Harden/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Thompson would be an awesome closing line-up.
Rationalism over beliefs

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2021, 03:01:07 PM »

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Harden is a top 10 player, no doubt, but he is a headcass..I donít want that on this team

These excuses are some of the lamest I ever hear.  The guy is an elite scorer.  You put your feelings aside about stuff like that when youíre trying to win.

Yeah because it was so much fun watching the elite player Kyrie.  Worst two years of Celtics basketball in a long time.  Made me miss Eric Montross.
Harden is in a different universe compared to Kyrie offensively.

James Harden may well be the best basketball player in the world right now. He has an argument against Giannis Antetokounmpo, LeBron James, Kevin Durant (or Kawhi Leonard).

But it's painful to give up a 24-year-old upcoming All Star for a 31-year-old. You only do that if you're confident that you can assemble a legit title contender right now. Currently we don't have the depth. And then giving up Brown. Aside from Tatum you're not giving Harden much to work with honestly.

I think Brown + Walker straight up for Harden + Gordon is fair value, but that might even be an overpay if the reports about what other teams are not willing to offer are true. And even though I think it's fair, I'm not sure whether we have enough depth left.

If we could trade Walker + prospects + picks for Harden by including a 3rd team then I'm not hesitating. Get some depth, include McLemore and a power forward in to the deal. Harden/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Thompson would be an awesome closing line-up.
I'd wait until the offseason if I were Ainge - it doesn't seem like Houston's in a rush to move him and we can get out of Tatum's poison pill provision when the offseason rolls around so we can have more options in trade talks.
Jaylen for All-NBA

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2021, 03:10:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think trading Kemba, parts and picks for Harden is the only Harden trade that makes sense. You want to add Harden to the Tatum-Brown-Smart core for the best shot at winning a title. Adding Harden while moving Brown or Brown and Smart only moves the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

You put Harden at PG and Smart at SG on offense and they switch positions defensively. You keep the dominant three wing lineup. And if Harden leaves in a year and a half, you still have your Tatum-Brown-Smart core to move forward with.

Houston has been turned down across the league trying to get young studs in return for Harden. Miami won't give up Bam. Philly won't give up Simmons. The Nets weren't willing to move the young trio of Lavert, Dinwiddie and Allen. There is no reason for Danny to give up Brown or Smart and Brown when Harden's market value is as low as it is.

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2021, 04:12:56 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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The way I see it, it's a question of balance.

Title teams have balance in the talent of their stars: KG, PP, Allen. Lakers: Kobe-Shaq; now AD, LJ. 

The Celtics right now have Walker, Tatum and Brown.  What does adding Harden do for them ? He's basically more of the same--an outside offensive guy.
From the Celtics' view, Walker would fit best in a trade, but he would have to be playing and 100% again to have trade value. Plus Houston has Wall at PG.

So it's Tatum or Brown. Tatum is untouchable, and Brown is looking more untouchable every day. Or maybe highly. tradeable?

Then you have to factor in Harden's fit with the team. Can he make them better? Walker and Harden in the backcourt? Are there enough touches? In Charlotte, Walker was a 30 ppg guy. In Boston, the touches haven't been there for him to do the same.



Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2021, 12:26:18 AM »

Offline Moranis

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3-Team trade I think might work

Boston - Harden, McLemore, Clemons, Sumner
Indiana - Walker, Edwards, BOS 2021 2nd, OKC 2021 2nd (from BOS)
Houston - Oladipo, McDermott, Langford, Nesmith, Green, BOS 2021 1st, BOS 2023 1st (lotto), BOS 2025 1st (lotto)

Indiana would obviously have to believe Oladipo isn't going to stay and prefer more long term security in Walker.  Houston would probably need to believe Oladipo would stay, but I think that is solid enough value. 

So Boston post-trade (with 1 open spot)

PG - Harden, Teague, Pritchard, Sumner, Clemons
SG - Smart, McLemore
SF - Brown, Ojeleye, G. Williams
Pf - Tatum, R. Williams
C - Thompson, Theis

A little light down low, but with the open roster spot Boston can find someone, and I do think that team could certainly compete for a title the next two year.  Certainly far more capable then the team with Walker. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2021, 01:26:35 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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The way I see it, it's a question of balance.

Title teams have balance in the talent of their stars: KG, PP, Allen. Lakers: Kobe-Shaq; now AD, LJ. 

The Celtics right now have Walker, Tatum and Brown.  What does adding Harden do for them ? He's basically more of the same--an outside offensive guy.
From the Celtics' view, Walker would fit best in a trade, but he would have to be playing and 100% again to have trade value. Plus Houston has Wall at PG.

So it's Tatum or Brown. Tatum is untouchable, and Brown is looking more untouchable every day. Or maybe highly. tradeable?

Then you have to factor in Harden's fit with the team. Can he make them better? Walker and Harden in the backcourt? Are there enough touches? In Charlotte, Walker was a 30 ppg guy. In Boston, the touches haven't been there for him to do the same.

My only concern at this point (assuming it would be Brown for Harden) is that Tatum will become a black hole and try to force shots whenever he has the ball. Iím confident Walker would defer and sacrifice shots. We know Harden will dominate the ball the majority of the shot clock. But Iím not sure Tatum is prepared to sacrifice as the clear beta to Harden.

I just donít think at their respective stages in their careers/egos that Harden and Tatum would be a good fit. I think Brown and Harden would be a more complimentary fit, but I donít see Ainge trading Tatum for ANYONE (not named Doncic?).
I AM A CELTIC

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2021, 03:05:08 AM »

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The way I see it, it's a question of balance.

Title teams have balance in the talent of their stars: KG, PP, Allen. Lakers: Kobe-Shaq; now AD, LJ. 

The Celtics right now have Walker, Tatum and Brown.  What does adding Harden do for them ? He's basically more of the same--an outside offensive guy.
From the Celtics' view, Walker would fit best in a trade, but he would have to be playing and 100% again to have trade value. Plus Houston has Wall at PG.

So it's Tatum or Brown. Tatum is untouchable, and Brown is looking more untouchable every day. Or maybe highly. tradeable?

Then you have to factor in Harden's fit with the team. Can he make them better? Walker and Harden in the backcourt? Are there enough touches? In Charlotte, Walker was a 30 ppg guy. In Boston, the touches haven't been there for him to do the same.
The pre-KD Warriors had Steph as their only viable volume creator in the starting lineup and Klay as a secondary scorer while the Cavs were reliant on a LeBron/Kyrie duopoly with Kevin Love relegated to a spot up role, ditto for the Heat who won titles with LeBron/Wade carrying the offence and Bosh being a spot up shooter. Title teams don't need the sort of "balance" you're talking about - they need reliable creators who can lead efficient offences with the right pieces around them, it doesn't really matter where they create offence from besides for fit next to other on-ball stars.
Jaylen for All-NBA

Re: Harden For Brown?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2021, 09:03:47 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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