Author Topic: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?  (Read 2899 times)

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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2020, 01:34:20 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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This is very dangerous talk intended to maintain the polarity in politics, understanding that some in power believe the polarity benefits them.

Quebec voted year after year to secede from Canada.  One year, the vote actually passed by a narrow margin.  After that, nothing happened.  Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.  This talk is great for getting a radical base riled up but I predict that no state will ever actually secede.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2020, 01:36:26 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I don't know....I guess I can blame my 20 years in the Navy for this but I "LOVE" diversity in my life...

As much as I love being Black my life would get boring REAL FAST if all I saw was people who looked like me.....thought like me..........believed like I do.....loved like I do.

The United States would end if secession happens. There is NO WAY for such a thing to occur without much tumult....no peaceful way to this.

Like I stated above - how in THE WORLD would Military Recruiters do THEIR JOBS?

There is no BLUE STATE or RED STATE in the Military.....there is a set state of VALUES that we abide by in order to accomplish THE MISSION...............

Those SAME SET of values serve us well in the civilian world.

Maybe it's time to bring back a draft.....I wonder if the SAME PEOPLE pushing for secession would feel that way if they actually SERVED.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2020, 02:10:39 PM »

Offline feckless

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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2020, 02:14:18 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2020, 02:15:18 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.
all states have "red" and "blue" and other colors as well. therefore, succession is not about the moving of land, it is about the movement of people. are we to believe over a hundred million people in the US would change location because of this?

succession is a silly topic. how does a group succeed successfully? I thinkt he US civil war has laid out the government response to such actions.

succession is treason. and for any member of congress or the military or government who has taken an oath to protect and serve the constitution, they would be traitors.

There may be violence. There may be stupidity. But there will not no large scale, organized, coherent, and articulate movement for succession by any significant number of people.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2020, 02:25:40 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?
I hope it does. If it doesn't, than I think that the British government is turning its nose up on its own people and such an act should be looked at as a breach of democracy. Regardless of how smart of a decision it is, the people voted to leave, so they should leave. Period.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2020, 03:36:02 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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I don't know....I guess I can blame my 20 years in the Navy for this but I "LOVE" diversity in my life...

As much as I love being Black my life would get boring REAL FAST if all I saw was people who looked like me.....thought like me..........believed like I do.....loved like I do.

The United States would end if secession happens. There is NO WAY for such a thing to occur without much tumult....no peaceful way to this.

Like I stated above - how in THE WORLD would Military Recruiters do THEIR JOBS?

There is no BLUE STATE or RED STATE in the Military.....there is a set state of VALUES that we abide by in order to accomplish THE MISSION...............

Those SAME SET of values serve us well in the civilian world.

Maybe it's time to bring back a draft.....I wonder if the SAME PEOPLE pushing for secession would feel that way if they actually SERVED.

Allen West was in the military.... so much for the draft changing crazy thought.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2020, 03:45:31 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?
I hope it does. If it doesn't, than I think that the British government is turning its nose up on its own people and such an act should be looked at as a breach of democracy. Regardless of how smart of a decision it is, the people voted to leave, so they should leave. Period.

Public opinion moves. A year ago, Labour wanted a new referendum on Brexit, which they might have won. Tories, wisely, said no and had a vote on parliament instead. Corbyn was personally unlikeable and had no clear position on Brexit. Got creamed. Sometimes it all turns on how and when you ask the question.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2020, 04:46:38 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?
I hope it does. If it doesn't, than I think that the British government is turning its nose up on its own people and such an act should be looked at as a breach of democracy. Regardless of how smart of a decision it is, the people voted to leave, so they should leave. Period.

Public opinion moves. A year ago, Labour wanted a new referendum on Brexit, which they might have won. Tories, wisely, said no and had a vote on parliament instead. Corbyn was personally unlikeable and had no clear position on Brexit. Got creamed. Sometimes it all turns on how and when you ask the question.
But that's an awful precedent to set. It encourages governments to drag their feet on referendums in hoping that the people will pick "the right choice" a couple years later.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2020, 05:02:46 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?

I really don't follow it that closely but I think a lot of the Rah Rah that was behind it has now dissipated.  It sounded a lot better in principle than the reality of actually trying to do it.  I predict that if the idea of secession ever actually happened, that the same thing would occur.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2020, 05:14:36 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.
all states have "red" and "blue" and other colors as well. therefore, succession is not about the moving of land, it is about the movement of people. are we to believe over a hundred million people in the US would change location because of this?

succession is a silly topic. how does a group succeed successfully? I thinkt he US civil war has laid out the government response to such actions.

succession is treason. and for any member of congress or the military or government who has taken an oath to protect and serve the constitution, they would be traitors.

There may be violence. There may be stupidity. But there will not no large scale, organized, coherent, and articulate movement for succession by any significant number of people.

Texas state Republican Kyle Biedermann is planning to file legislation to let Texans vote on whether they want to secede from the Union or not. Obviously it's just a referendum and is not legally binding beyond asking for people's opinion. But just like Brexit, people probably need to be careful what they ask for.



I guess Texans have been talking about secession for decades now. Wonder how much it would cost them to start having to pay for their own national defense.

Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2020, 05:26:41 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?

I really don't follow it that closely but I think a lot of the Rah Rah that was behind it has now dissipated.  It sounded a lot better in principle than the reality of actually trying to do it.  I predict that if the idea of secession ever actually happened, that the same thing would occur.

It's actually already happened VG, on January 31 this year, which was the date the UK officially left the EU. They have a grace period of a year where business continues to operate under EU laws, and have until the end of this year to come up with a deal.

What they are trying to do now is agree on a trade deal. If they can't come up with a deal by the end of the year then the UK will leave without a deal, which would have extremely negative repercussions for business, in terms of port closures, immediate tariffs and increased regulations. Right now the British PM Boris Johnson and the European Commission President Ursula Von Der Leyen have warned their constituents that a deal is unlikely to be reached, meaning the UK will revert to WTO rules when it comes to dealing with the EU, rather than a bilateral trade deal.

Quote
LONDON — Blowing past another deadline, Britain and the European Union said on Sunday they have made enough progress in their seemingly endless trade and security talks to continue negotiations into the coming days.

Many had feared Sunday was the final hour to reach a Brexit deal, but the talks will roll on. Businesses on both sides of the English Channel, fearing chaos at the ports and steep, immediate tariffs, sighed a collective “Whew, that was close!”

Still, Prime Minister Boris Johnson, in a TV address, did not sound optimistic. “I’m afraid we’re still very far apart on some key things,” he said. “But where there is life there’s hope, we’re going to keep talking to see what we can do. The U.K. certainly won’t be walking away from the talks.”

Johnson warned “the most likely” outcome would see Britain depart the European Union without a deal, leaving it to trade on what the prime minister insists on calling “Australian terms,” which really means defaulting to do business by the rules set by the World Trade Organization.

Europe is Britain’s largest trading partner; reverting to WTO rules would mean taxes, or tariffs, on exports sold to the continent. The average WTO tariff is less than 3 percent. But for automobiles it’s 10 percent, and for fresh meat — such as Welsh lamb — it’s 38 percent or more.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/johnson-brexit-talks-continue-/2020/12/13/5690b08c-3677-11eb-9699-00d311f13d2d_story.html

The rah rah has only dissipated for us here in the US - in the UK it's causing a very high degree of angst for businesses and for governments across Europe. Not to mention Ireland, because of the Northern Ireland issue and the possible violation of the Good Friday Agreement requiring there to be no hard borders between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement was of course the agreement that led to the ceasefire between the Provisional IRA and the British military. People are a little uncomfortable with possible violence resuming if borders have to go up again.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2020, 08:07:34 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Kind of like Brexit.  Yeah, screw the EU, we are going to bust out.  Oh wait.

Are you predicting that Brexit won’t happen?

UK poster here. Brexit happened in January. What you're reading about now is the end of the transition period, which expires at the end of the year.

Can confirm it's a massive mess, but it's looking like it will end with a free trade deal (despite what they said last week) or probably some kind of "probation period" for the rest of the Union - Northern Ireland is already going to get a reprieve because of the reasons mentioned above.

As for secession, I think the UK has shot itself in the foot with Brexit but I imagine Texas would have a much harder (and worse) time leaving the United States than Great Britain did leaving the EU. It's closer to Scotland's Independence movement if you want to make a similar analogy.


edit: Worth noting though, that the overall points VG are making are correct. Leaving the EU could mean many different things. The Tories have shot down Brexit deals because "they weren't Brexit-enough", despite suggesting during the Vote Leave campaign that we would still remain in the single market (which is a British invention, largely). The official Tory campaign during the referendum was, by the way, to stay in the EU. It was poorly planned because David Cameron is an idiot. There's a lot of diverse stuff happening under the hood, as it were, so I wouldn't bandy about Brexit as a secessionist movement per say.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 08:18:18 AM by Kernewek »
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2020, 10:23:45 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Just like Brexit was something that sounded good at political rallies but in the end  was not thought through and the  reality is a lot less favorable, the same will happen with this.  This Texas rep. who is a hardware store owner, thinks this sounds great to a constituency but it should be a requirement that he present a full plan, not just throw it out and see if it sticks.

For example, what is the plan to secure the border with Mexico?  How will Texas maintain the new border with US?  What about all the military bases in Texas?  What about American companies that are headquartered in Texas but have offices in other states?  Or the other way around?

There is no way that any of this has been thought out because if it had, it would be clear this is a really dumb idea.  No, this is just more divisive political rhetoric intended to do nothing more than rile up a base.  This is not good for the country and not good for Texas.

Let's see if rank and file elected republicans sign on to this.  127 of them agreed that the Supreme court should overturn an election so nothing would surprise me.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2020, 10:43:33 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I don't know if we will get there again, but it seems to me that congress has always been a place for divergent viewpoints that generally reflect the range of perspectives of the citizens.  And that should be a good thing.

We thrive not in spite of our differences, but because of them.

Giving voice to opposing points of view even at the extremes does allow for the possibility of agreement somewhere between the goal lines.  And that's often the better place to be in a society.  If we divided into 2 countries based on our political views, my guess is that both would be worse off than if we make it work together.   But who knows?