Author Topic: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?  (Read 2854 times)

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Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« on: December 13, 2020, 07:34:43 AM »

Online ozgod

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In the wake of the Supreme Court refusing to hear Texas Atty. Gen. Paxton's long shot lawsuit seeking to overturn the results of the Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin elections by having those states appoint electors that would vote for President Trump, a number of public figures supporting the current President have brought up the topic of secession. One of them was Allen West, the chairman of the Texas Republican Party:



Another was Rush Limbaugh, who had this to say:

Quote
Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh on Wednesday suggested on his show that America was headed toward the conditions that resulted in the American Civil War after a caller asked whether conservatism would ever dominate U.S. culture again.

The host responded to the call, first noted by Media Matters, saying that he believed the country was "trending towards secession," or the act in which states could attempt to leave the Union.

"I thought you were asking me something else when you said, 'Can we win?' I thought you meant, 'Can we win the culture, can we dominate the culture.' I actually think ó and Iíve referenced this, Iíve alluded to this a couple of times because Iíve seen others allude to this ó I actually think that weíre trending toward secession," Limbaugh said.

"It canít go on this way," he continued. "There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs. We canít be in this dire a conflict without something giving somewhere along the way."

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/529609-rush-limbaugh-says-us-trending-toward-seccession

Is Rush right? Is secession inevitable, at least within our lifetimes?

I can only speak to my own experiences, as someone born in the mid to late 70s I wasn't old enough to experience the conflicts the country faced over the Civil Rights movement or over the Vietnam War, when it probably seemed like the country was being pulled in two directions. Most of us were (probably) not old enough to experience all the things that happened prior to that, during WW1, WW2 or during the Depression, though we probably had grandparents that did. So maybe we're magnifying this moment we're in because we have no frame of reference. But can we really get along, as red and blue, as Democrats and Republicans, as liberals and conservatives? Because there's a lot of hate out there that each side has for the other.

You could almost argue that on the extreme fringes of each side, the main thing that binds those folks together is not necessarily support for a shared set of beliefs, like "Medicare for All" on the Left or "Lower Taxes" on the Right, it's either "triggering the libs" or "owning the conservatives". Any moderate or center-left/right who thinks that negotiation and compromise with the other side is something that works immediately gets primaried. Look how many Republicans signed on to Paxton's ill fated lawsuit to overturn legal results.

Is the breakup of our country inevitable because each side just thinks too differently from the other?
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2020, 08:21:22 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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The groups that are always mad , discontent, hate those with smarts who work hard and build up , will seperate themselves into a larger area....inshort time will look at other more prosperous states with envy . Forced redistribution of weath never works. These groups that historically never have lived in peace , live off others then will make war on the states that prosper or thrive,  take their coal , trees ,oil to run their communities.  It will end the same , no matter what ,  some humans gather , work together without goverment oversight or big brother  , the others tears it down and rob the clever ones and kill them.  I m hoping i ll be long gone when this plays out .  My mother predicted this 60 years ago.   Maybe its just a bump in the road we are having ...i hope.    There is definitely a power grab going on to mimic the chinese state , who electronically watches and controls everybody actions . We lost much freedoms .  The worst is freedom to speak freely.   In China that is not possible . 

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2020, 08:26:05 AM »

Online BruceBanner18

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The false premise is that there is a dichotomy. Media and politicians want us to believe red and blue are more than a made up construct, but it's an agenda not reality.  Media and politicians are driving this agenda to preserve their power as they watch other legacy, bureaucratic institutions torn down across society around them. The writing is on the wall. They are panicked and pushing this, among other false premises, in an attempt to retain power. It's from these two legacy institutions that the country will succeed.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2020, 08:29:48 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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The whole world is laughing at The United States right now.....and Trump's BFF Putin is having his cake and eating it too.

"Mission Accomplished" for Vlad.

The United States is HURTING due to the lack of leadership early on in the pandemic....and NOW we're splintering around the edges.......

Rush Limbaugh is a fool for even passing this issue along - no matter who on the fringes of the Republican Party suggested it.

From MY point of view MANY Blacks voted this time around - thus truly effecting "CHANGE" in our lifetime.......the SAME voting block that President Trump PRAISED in 2016 for STAYING HOME and NOT voting......."DID" vote THIS TIME around...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/21/trump-black-voters-turnout-2016-398520

Quote
In a private meeting inside Trump Tower days before his inauguration, Donald Trump told a group of civil rights leaders something most Republicans wouldnít dare publicly acknowledge: lower turnout among Black voters did, in fact, benefit him in the 2016 presidential election.

ďMany Blacks didnít go out to vote for Hillary Ďcause they liked me. That was almost as good as getting the vote, you know, and it was great,
Ē the president-elect said, according to an audio recording of the meeting shared with POLITICO.

These Fringe Republicans pushing for secession (and the talking heads like Rush actually PUSHING it along) are not American and seemingly pushing for this crazy secession idea or perhaps WORSE.......

Just about ALL of these frivolous and utterly ridiculous lawsuits are targeting areas of HIGH urban turnout - IE Black votes.

The righting is on the wall - at least to me.

"But Blacks LOVE ME........."

"HEY - there's my African Americans"......pointing to Black supporters in his crowds..............

Can you imagine President Obama doing this mess?

"Hey - there's my Caucasian Brothers and Sisters"...............................he'd been impeached and removed.

Why is there a double standard in this country?

Some may disagree and that's your right but I'm tired of Trump and am ready for him to move on.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 08:45:40 AM by GreenFaith1819 »
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2020, 08:35:38 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2020, 08:41:07 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Double post, sorry.
2021 CelticsStrong Historical Draft Indiana Pacers:
C- Marc Gasol(16-17)Jeff Ruland(83-84)Theo Ratliff(00-01)
PF- Dan Roundfield(79-80)Paul Milsap(14-15)Dino Radja(95-96)
SF- Dan Marjerle(92-93)Rashard Lewis(08-09)Jalen Rose(99-00)
SG- Reggie Lewis(91-92)World B. Free(78-79)Dell Curry(93-94)
PG- Steve Nash(05-06)Fat Lever(87-88)Tony Allen(12-13)

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2020, 09:29:03 AM »

Online BruceBanner18

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.

Of course it's idiotic. As idiotic as suggesting that we divide people by race, political party or gender...as if all Blacks who voted for a Democrat think the same. It's silly. I have trans friends that don't believe in gay marriage, I have family that loves automatic guns and also believes in abortion. I have a daughter who plays football and wrestles...and isn't lesbian. And on. And on.

Haven't we matured past assuming we know a person and their approach to life simply based on a physical characteristic or belief? Anyone espousing ideology that people are either "this" or "that" are way, way out of touch, likely over 40 and/or are trying to manipulate us.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2020, 09:56:09 AM »

Offline td450

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.

Any reader of history should know that we cannot take stability for granted. Every so often, the politically idiotic stuff happens. The only thing that is idiotic is believing we are special and we can't screw this up.

We aren't there now, but we have crossed over into a new realm where a sufficient segment of our population has the belief systems in place for this to metastasize as a problem. So I would say we are OK for now, but we would be foolish if we didn't see healing this as one of the two most important projects of this decade.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2020, 12:04:27 PM »

Online feckless

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When I see stupid stuff like the ridiculous, legally laughable, Texas lawsuit and the Republicans that signed on to it, plus the everyday politics of Alabama and Mississippi, etc. I jokingly say I blame Lincoln - he should have let them secede.

Imagine The North and the South without a civil war.  Just separating.  One country smart and respected - the other racist, ignorant, voting rights suppressed, different education systems for the wealthy and the poor, the blacks and the whites, Jim Crow unchecked, the leaders lie and the people chuckle about it, laughed at by the rest of the world.  Trumpland!  And the United States not perfect but with leaders that are called out for not telling the truth, with values like public education, healthcare, equality, the right to vote, conservatives, moderates and liberals arguing real issues.

George Washington famously turned down a third term as President.  If someone went to Donald and said Don you have been such a great President we want you to be our President for life --What do you think Donald Trump would say?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 12:13:10 PM by feckless »
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2020, 12:32:51 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I wouldn't take any session talk seriously until there's a major violent event and the authorities in whatever state it happened in sided against the US government.  Until something like that happens it's pure BS that the media won't hesitate to sensationalize.

Also it won't happen because the middle class is too large.  Changes like that are driven by economics, not by some altruistic visions of a perfect society.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2020, 12:44:10 PM »

Offline mef730

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Say this "Secession" nonsense actually happens...

What about the Blacks in Red States that voted for Biden and Harris? Do they "MOVE to a Blue State"?

What about Whites or other races or ethnicities that voted for Trump in BLUE states? Do THEY move to Red States?

I mean - am I missing something here? That is what this means, at least to ME.

Let's just CARVE UP Democrats, Republicans, Whites, Blacks, Asians, Latinx, LGBTQ and others and move us by POLITICAL association, LOOL - to a Red or Blue state.

The whole thing is IDIOTIC at best....and further fermented by Republican Party's lack of speaking out against this nonsense.

I don't believe that anyone will secede but, for the sake of argument, let's say there's a north/south split. Fair or not, people will be forced to move to the country that better represents their beliefs. Countries are physically defined by geography so, say, a liberal in the south will still be able to vote, but they're probably going to lose. As their country increasingly moves in the "wrong" direction, they will have to move.

The logistics of having everyone stay where they are but live according to their political association would be impossible.

Mike

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2020, 12:46:13 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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This stuff is DANGEROUS - especially to National Security.

If I'm a Navy, Army, Marine Corps, Air Force, Space Force, Coast Guard - recruiter how in the world am I going to RECRUIT.................

There are a LOT of young impressionable men and women out there getting confused (and probably misled) by this nonsense...........

If I'm a recruiter in a Secessionalized Country do I recruit from the Blue States today and the Red States tomorrow............................................................????

The idiocy needs to STOP.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2020, 01:24:52 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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It is getting clearer and clearer that Donald Trump is not the problem. The GOP really has some true believers.

Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2020, 01:27:37 PM »

Online Roy H.

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In the near term?  In any of our lifetimes?  I donít see it.

But, eventually, itís probably an inevitability.
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Re: Secession - inevitable or avoidable?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2020, 01:30:11 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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In the near term?  In any of our lifetimes?  I donít see it.

But, eventually, itís probably an inevitability.

God I hope you're wrong....

The "United" States will cease to exist in that regard.
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C- Marc Gasol(16-17)Jeff Ruland(83-84)Theo Ratliff(00-01)
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