Author Topic: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts  (Read 4555 times)

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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2020, 05:30:51 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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This board is getting wild in the weeks following the end of the season.

We're now at "Danny Ainge makes panic moves."
it has been a rough season.
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2020, 05:43:13 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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This board is getting wild in the weeks following the end of the season.

We're now at "Danny Ainge makes panic moves."
it has been a rough season.

I mean, it's been a rough 2020 for so many reasons.

The playoffs were mostly exhilarating!  We ended The Process!
 We beat Toronto in an epic game 7.  Did we already forget the Marcus Smart block?  I guess we must have, given the threads about trading Smart.  I do agree that the end of the playoff run was pretty dispiriting.

That said, overall I feel like the 19-20 season went about as well as we could have hoped for the Celts, and I'm frankly pretty mystified as to why people seem to be so down about everything. 

Maybe it's the result of people like Bill Simmons pulling revisionist history and turning this season into the ONE CHANCE THE CELTICS HAD TO WIN A TITLE?!?!??! even though a year ago it seemed like the Celts were in a for a retooling period.

The Celts have a 22 year old All-NBA player eligible for a max extension and an All Star caliber 23 year old player under contract for four more years.  They were a couple wins away from making the Finals despite their fourth best player missing most of the playoffs due to injury.  There's plenty to feel good about!
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2020, 05:54:15 PM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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A few things that people must realize:

1- Al Horford leaving shows that Hayward or anyone else can leave us for nothing. This is business, no one owes the Celtics loyalty.

2- DA is not afraid to trade ANYBODY Isiah Thomas was traded for an upgrade. Kemba can be traded for one to.

3- Isiah Thomas + Crowder + draft pick is not a fair value trade for Kyrie Irving. This is just one example of unbalanced Celtic trades I’m sure you all know some more, but this is good enough.

4- Kemba coming here was on NOBODIES radar. It was a complete shock so everyone just like everything else I listed.

I for one love trade ideas and different scenarios, but one thing i know for sure is the Celtics will not get another ring as long as Kemba is their PG.

I feel the same way.

I think Danny signed Kemba because he was the biggest name available at the time and he needed to maintain asset control/save face over the whole Kyrie fiasco.

Kemba presented Danny with the opportunity to retain an asset.

I think the team will be alot better (believe it or not) with a long, switchable defender at the pg spot.
A sort of a 3D type who can switch on Defense.

If we kept Rozier instead I think we wouldn’t have needed to trade Baynes. Wonder how the year would have turned out?

I dont know if Baynes was better than Theis this past season. Theis was really really good, he cannot maintain but he was real good.

And I also think Rozier had to go regardless.

Would have loved a shot at Brogdon

No need to have dumped Theis for Baynes. Both would have been our 5 plan.  Baynes obviously better able to defend Embiid and Bam than Theis.

Rozier was a RFA, no? So we could have matched any offer. Plus by doing a sign and trade, he got more than the market otherwise dictated.

I was a huge advocate for keeping Rozier. I could just watch him play and tell he’s different. I think he could have continued to develop into a fine player.

Kemba’s knee is concerning but I care slightly less about that. He could have been full health in the playoffs he still only useful on 1 side of the court. Not only that he completely shrunk in the playoffs. Was getting outmatched by Lowery! Lowery is a great player, but Kemba didn’t look like he stood a chance. Rozier would never let that happen lol.

Either way Kemba is still a valuable player and I think he would be extraordinary on a veteran team that wouldn’t demand as much as the Celtics.

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2020, 05:54:17 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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This board is getting wild in the weeks following the end of the season.

We're now at "Danny Ainge makes panic moves."
it has been a rough season.

I mean, it's been a rough 2020 for so many reasons.

The playoffs were mostly exhilarating!  We ended The Process!
 We beat Toronto in an epic game 7.  Did we already forget the Marcus Smart block?  I guess we must have, given the threads about trading Smart.  I do agree that the end of the playoff run was pretty dispiriting.

That said, overall I feel like the 19-20 season went about as well as we could have hoped for the Celts, and I'm frankly pretty mystified as to why people seem to be so down about everything. 

Maybe it's the result of people like Bill Simmons pulling revisionist history and turning this season into the ONE CHANCE THE CELTICS HAD TO WIN A TITLE?!?!??! even though a year ago it seemed like the Celts were in a for a retooling period.

The Celts have a 22 year old All-NBA player eligible for a max extension and an All Star caliber 23 year old player under contract for four more years.  They were a couple wins away from making the Finals despite their fourth best player missing most of the playoffs due to injury.  There's plenty to feel good about!
i agree and a tp. i will always believe that with a fully healthy hayward boston tops miami and then defeats the evil lakers. but, as was the case with KG years ago, sometimes injuries stop a team.

the celtics are in a very good position right now with two emerging starts and smart. ainge has shown he can get other players, such as hayward and kemba and irving.

i look forward to watching this team for the next few years at least.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2020, 06:15:20 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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This board is getting wild in the weeks following the end of the season.

We're now at "Danny Ainge makes panic moves."
it has been a rough season.

I mean, it's been a rough 2020 for so many reasons.

The playoffs were mostly exhilarating!  We ended The Process!
 We beat Toronto in an epic game 7.  Did we already forget the Marcus Smart block?  I guess we must have, given the threads about trading Smart.  I do agree that the end of the playoff run was pretty dispiriting.

That said, overall I feel like the 19-20 season went about as well as we could have hoped for the Celts, and I'm frankly pretty mystified as to why people seem to be so down about everything. 

Maybe it's the result of people like Bill Simmons pulling revisionist history and turning this season into the ONE CHANCE THE CELTICS HAD TO WIN A TITLE?!?!??! even though a year ago it seemed like the Celts were in a for a retooling period.

The Celts have a 22 year old All-NBA player eligible for a max extension and an All Star caliber 23 year old player under contract for four more years.  They were a couple wins away from making the Finals despite their fourth best player missing most of the playoffs due to injury.  There's plenty to feel good about!

I don't think it was the "one" chance but I do feel that the Celtics let a golden opportunity get away from them.   It was all set up for them to win the East and I think they would've had a legit chance to knock off the Lakers in the Finals. 

The ending of this season will eat away at me.  This wasn't like '17 or even '18.  They should've beat Miami.


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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2020, 06:15:44 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I was a huge advocate for keeping Rozier. I could just watch him play and tell he’s different. I think he could have continued to develop into a fine player.


you think Kemba's contract is bad but you would have paid Rozier


ok then, well,
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2020, 06:24:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't think it was the "one" chance but I do feel that the Celtics let a golden opportunity get away from them.   It was all set up for them to win the East and I think they would've had a legit chance to knock off the Lakers in the Finals. 

The ending of this season will eat away at me.  This wasn't like '17 or even '18.  They should've beat Miami.


It was definitely disappointing.  The Celtics were the more talented team but Miami was better. 

As Celts fans I feel like we haven't been on that side of a loss like that in a while.  Usually the Celts are the ones pulling the upset against a more talented team.


Young teams tend to drop series against more experienced but less talented opponents, though.  Happened to the Thunder against the Mavs in 2011, for example.

The end of game 6 was especially deflating.  Went from a modest hard fought lead to a blowout in just a few minutes.


Still, this was a weird season.  The bubble was a weird circumstance.  Before 2020 we weren't sure if Tatum was going to get to a level that would warrant thinking of him as a foundational superstar for a great team.  He hit that peak and more.


My takeaways from this season are:

- Tatum's Jan / Feb run
- Jaylen Brown is a steady 20 ppg All-Star caliber wing
- OT win against the Clippers
- All around good vibes after the Kyrie debacle
- Humiliating Philly in Round 1
- Great series against Toronto (first ever TOR - BOS series)
- Marcus Smart block


The Celts need a bench, they need to figure out their best closing lineup, and they need that lineup to get much better at executing in crunch time. Those are significant challenges but they're far from insurmountable.

Think about this -- the Celtics haven't had the same crunch time lineup in the playoffs in consecutive seasons in ages.  Every year it's changed. 

I don't think the Celts need any major trades so much as they need a steadier supporting cast to get them through the second and third quarters as well as more continuity to build more trust and steadiness in those tough moments.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2020, 06:32:44 PM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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I was a huge advocate for keeping Rozier. I could just watch him play and tell he’s different. I think he could have continued to develop into a fine player.


you think Kemba's contract is bad but you would have paid Rozier


ok then, well,

Rozier contract is 3 years 58M..... that’s 19M a year. A young asset that grows instead of declining. Kemba’s contract was a Max was it not? I personally don’t think neither 1 of them are a bad contract.

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2020, 06:41:16 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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Hayward not picking up his option would be silly to me. He’s not going to make 34 mil this year anywhere else. Regardless of how well or poorly he plays this season, I don’t see him signing less than a 4yr/80 anywhere. A team will give him that even if he’s below average this year.

Hayward looking around isn’t surprising. He may be in the mind set of I just need to move on from Boston. I can’t imagine the pressure he is feeling after his unfortunate string of injuries have derailed his Boston tenure.

However, Hayward opting out and signing elsewhere is the absolute worst case scenario for Boston. We lose a player with max talent potential (key word potential), we get no assets in return, and it doesn’t help our cap situation in any way.

  It absolutely kills some Boston sports fans to hear Hayward has max potential still. 17.5/6.5 and 4.5 with his percentages way down the pecking order and they don’t see that as max talent. Riiiight.

#'s are there but durability isn't. He's played in 50% of our games as a Celtic, is that worth max potential? If he's not there when we need him most what good is he?

There has been a lot of questioning "would we have beat ... if Hayward was healthy" the fact we ask that time and time again to me is the problem with Hayward.
   Yup. All correct. I just wish people in Boston could admit what’s their when he’s been healthy. It’s like trying to talk politics with people that dislike Hayward. Like “ omg I’m not disagreeing with ya ( to my buddy) he HAS NOT been available. I’m just simply stating what I think he is when healthy. “  Crickets. It’s a conversation ender. There’s such dislike for him people won’t admit that as if the admission from them means he stays. It won’t matter. Danny isn’t listening to any of us.  It’s mind boggling.

I don't think anybody really dislikes Hayward - your post is a bit inflammatory and perhaps you are trying to evoke a strong reaction from the hypothetical other side. We all acknowledge that Hayward fits perfectly in our system and has proven he doesn't mind taking a back seat/filling in the gaps. We all realize that it has to have been incredibly frustrating for him to come to a situation where he should be competing for championships, but instead has been rehabbing for much of his time here.

From the perspective of Cs fans, I think most could go either way because while we realize he is a very good player, he has seemingly been cursed from the very beginning with this franchise. Committing long term money to him at a lower AAV could work out very well, but it could also be a disaster.

Per your comments about Ray and Al - Ray Allen left a championship core for less money because he didn't like management (thus, upsetting his teammates); he then hit the shot that essentially won MIA/Lebron a Title. With Al, I think most here believe that we dodged a bullet. If he had gone to any team other than the Sixers or Lakers, we would be wishing him well. Since he went to our rival, of course we are going to root against him; but I think people generally appreciate what he gave to this franchise and will think fondly of him when he has moved on.

   Naw. I’m not trying to fire anybody up. Theses are the opinions of friends and coworkers, everyday conversation on Celts . There’s just a lot of people that think even when he’s healthy, Hayward isn’t that good. Meaning not an all star LEVEL talent post 1st injury and it must have been somebody else talking about Ray and Al .

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2020, 07:03:55 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I was a huge advocate for keeping Rozier. I could just watch him play and tell he’s different. I think he could have continued to develop into a fine player.


you think Kemba's contract is bad but you would have paid Rozier


ok then, well,
Rozier signed a 3 year basically 57 million dollar contract that gets smaller every year and is just under 20 million this year (down to just under 19 and 18 the next two).  And he started off very slowly, but actually ended up with a pretty decent stat line at 18 p, 4.4 r, 4.1 a on a TS% of 55.3 which includes 40.7% from 3 and 87.4 from the line (his 2PT% at 43.6 was very bad keeping his TS% down). 

Kemba's contract was 33 this year and goes up to 34, 36, and 38 over the next 3.  So it is much worse.  And he is a more consistent and overall better offensive player, he isn't as good a defender or rebounder as Rozier is.  Neither is a great playmaker either.  So as a 3rd or 4th scoring option, you might actually prefer a guy like Rozier that is a better defender, hit the outside shot better (perhaps that is a 1 year fluke), and makes like half the money with one less year.  And that is with Charlotte overpaying a bit to ensure that Boston wouldn't match and would actually do the sign and trade.  Decent chance Boston could have signed Rozier at even lower dollars and probably could have gotten the 4th year, maybe something like 4 years, 70 million, which would have made the dollars favor Rozier even more.
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2020, 07:31:35 PM »

Offline jambr380

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   Naw. I’m not trying to fire anybody up. Theses are the opinions of friends and coworkers, everyday conversation on Celts . There’s just a lot of people that think even when he’s healthy, Hayward isn’t that good. Meaning not an all star LEVEL talent post 1st injury and it must have been somebody else talking about Ray and Al .

Oops, sorry about that - please take a TP as my apology. johnboy65 and dannyboy35 got me a little confused! I corrected it in my original post.

And, fwiw, I am definitely on record as saying I would love a re-signed Hayward on a long-term deal if you could guarantee me no major injuries. Obviously we don't know the future, but I do love what he offers. I just think that if you are trading one of Kemba/Hayward, it has to be Hayward since he we just signed Kemba last season. If they were both coming off year 3 (or even Kemba off of year 2), I would feel a lot more comfortable trading him.

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2020, 07:34:46 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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I was a huge advocate for keeping Rozier. I could just watch him play and tell he’s different. I think he could have continued to develop into a fine player.


you think Kemba's contract is bad but you would have paid Rozier


ok then, well,
Rozier signed a 3 year basically 57 million dollar contract that gets smaller every year and is just under 20 million this year (down to just under 19 and 18 the next two).  And he started off very slowly, but actually ended up with a pretty decent stat line at 18 p, 4.4 r, 4.1 a on a TS% of 55.3 which includes 40.7% from 3 and 87.4 from the line (his 2PT% at 43.6 was very bad keeping his TS% down). 

Kemba's contract was 33 this year and goes up to 34, 36, and 38 over the next 3.  So it is much worse.  And he is a more consistent and overall better offensive player, he isn't as good a defender or rebounder as Rozier is.  Neither is a great playmaker either.  So as a 3rd or 4th scoring option, you might actually prefer a guy like Rozier that is a better defender, hit the outside shot better (perhaps that is a 1 year fluke), and makes like half the money with one less year.  And that is with Charlotte overpaying a bit to ensure that Boston wouldn't match and would actually do the sign and trade.  Decent chance Boston could have signed Rozier at even lower dollars and probably could have gotten the 4th year, maybe something like 4 years, 70 million, which would have made the dollars favor Rozier even more.

  I wanted Rozier going forward too and I don’t think his play on that eastern finals run was a fluke. I’d still prefer Rozier here. Obviously Kemba is simply better but I was hoping for rozier, jaylen, Hayward, Tatum would go further together and I think at the time I was going for vucevic. I thought Hayward was a good enough creator and could kinda play the horford main facilitator role and our perimeter d would be outstanding . Just coming clean.

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2020, 07:47:23 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I think I have moved on from the idea of resigning Hayward unless it's cheap like $15 million per. The guy will keep getting injuries so why invest any more in him?

Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2020, 07:49:14 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Rozier signed a 3 year basically 57 million dollar contract that gets smaller every year and is just under 20 million this year (down to just under 19 and 18 the next two).  And he started off very slowly, but actually ended up with a pretty decent stat line at 18 p, 4.4 r, 4.1 a on a TS% of 55.3 which includes 40.7% from 3 and 87.4 from the line (his 2PT% at 43.6 was very bad keeping his TS% down). 



Brother I spent 4 years watching Rozier just like you.  I'm super relieved he's not on the team anymore.


He's an average-ish at best starting point guard.  Much worse as a backup.  The numbers he put up this year support that.  If he's starting and has the green light to shoot, he gets himself into enough of a rhythm to put up passable stats.

I'd much rather be paying a premium, including overpaying on the back end, for an All-Star caliber efficient scorer compared to paying market rate for Rozier to be the 15-20th best starting point guard in the league. 

Not to mention, Rozier just seemed like a bit of an annoying guy to have in the locker room and I found his style very frustrating except when he was really feeling himself.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 08:01:16 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: “Buzz”: Hayward considering “Al Horford” plan, could leave Celts
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2020, 07:53:34 PM »

Online PAOBoston

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In the situation where Hayward opts our and Cs get nothing, how do the Cs pivot? Do they continue to go the slow/development route? Do they trade Kemba? I don’t see them having the assets nor talent to be legit competitors next year.