Author Topic: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020  (Read 1158 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2020, 03:29:40 AM »

Online gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16222
  • Tommy Points: 928
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.

LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
to be honest, this past postseason has me thinking it's a shorter list: Lebron, Durant and maybe Doncic.  Bucks and Clips failing to get to the respective conference finals took the luster off Giannis and Kawhi for me.  Curry doesn't get to that level for me -- take away Klay and/or Green and GSW isn't at the top of the west with just Curry carrying them.  Jokic is a terrific player but he's not playing a position that allows him to dominate with the ball nor provide tough D on what's typically the other team's best player.
What has Durant done?  He had to jump to GSW and ride Curry's coattails to get a championship.
Only one of the most unstoppable players of all-time with rings, Finals MVPs and a regular season MVP. Got a few credits in the bank

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2020, 04:59:05 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
  • Tommy Points: 392
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.


LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
Can you read the title of the thread? Curry would've been in the top 4 if he wasn't injured this season.

And Davis' 2018 Pelicans were plenty difficult to handle, they swept a pretty good Blazers team and didn't get curbstomped by a dominant Warriors squad.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 05:05:28 AM by Somebody »

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2020, 05:01:05 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
  • Tommy Points: 392
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.

LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
to be honest, this past postseason has me thinking it's a shorter list: Lebron, Durant and maybe Doncic.  Bucks and Clips failing to get to the respective conference finals took the luster off Giannis and Kawhi for me.  Curry doesn't get to that level for me -- take away Klay and/or Green and GSW isn't at the top of the west with just Curry carrying them.  Jokic is a terrific player but he's not playing a position that allows him to dominate with the ball nor provide tough D on what's typically the other team's best player.
What has Durant done?  He had to jump to GSW and ride Curry's coattails to get a championship.
Uh...KD was the best player on those Warriors title teams, without him they would only have the one title, and they only won that title because Kyrie and Love were injured that year.
Looks at on/off data that suggests GSW's performance doesn't budge much with or without Durant and that the real driver of their excellence is the Curry/Draymond duo

Winning bias much?

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2020, 05:21:52 AM »

Online gouki88

  • Global Moderator
  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16222
  • Tommy Points: 928
  • 2019 CS Historical Draft Champion
I think my top 10 for this season would have to be:

1. Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Doncic
6. Davis
7. Jokic
8. Lillard
9. Butler
10. Gobert
HM: Middleton, Tatum, Paul, Siakam

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2020, 12:18:47 PM »

Online RodyTur10

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1628
  • Tommy Points: 200
  • Always offline from 9pm till 3am
I think my top 10 for this season would have to be:

1. Giannis
2. LeBron
3. Harden
4. Kawhi
5. Doncic
6. Davis
7. Jokic
8. Lillard
9. Butler
10. Gobert
HM: Middleton, Tatum, Paul, Siakam

TP, I'll go with that. This top 10 is a combination of my All NBA 1st and All NBA 2nd I had a couple of months ago.
Rationalism over beliefs

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 12:34:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20119
  • Tommy Points: 1958
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.


LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
Can you read the title of the thread? Curry would've been in the top 4 if he wasn't injured this season.

And Davis' 2018 Pelicans were plenty difficult to handle, they swept a pretty good Blazers team and didn't get curbstomped by a dominant Warriors squad.


"Top Players of 2020" isn't exactly a crystal clear title.

It could  be "top players who played this year" or it could mean "an updated list of the top players in the NBA as of 2020"


There was one decent Pelicans squad with Davis. Otherwise they were middling at best, even when he had pre-injury Demarcus Cousins playing with him.

Davis is a force of nature, but I don't think any player who can't be the primary creator for an offense can be a true top 5 / MVP type player the way the game is played in the NBA now.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2020, 02:01:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23379
  • Tommy Points: 1119
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.

LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
to be honest, this past postseason has me thinking it's a shorter list: Lebron, Durant and maybe Doncic.  Bucks and Clips failing to get to the respective conference finals took the luster off Giannis and Kawhi for me.  Curry doesn't get to that level for me -- take away Klay and/or Green and GSW isn't at the top of the west with just Curry carrying them.  Jokic is a terrific player but he's not playing a position that allows him to dominate with the ball nor provide tough D on what's typically the other team's best player.
What has Durant done?  He had to jump to GSW and ride Curry's coattails to get a championship.
Uh...KD was the best player on those Warriors title teams, without him they would only have the one title, and they only won that title because Kyrie and Love were injured that year.
Looks at on/off data that suggests GSW's performance doesn't budge much with or without Durant and that the real driver of their excellence is the Curry/Draymond duo

Winning bias much?
Except, the year they won Iggy was deemed the MVP of the Warriors (he had a higher TS% than Curry even).  And they likely only won because Irving and Love missed the series.  Curry needed Durant.  Without him, the Cavs just bullied Curry and he wasn't anywhere near as effective, which is why Iggy was deemed the MVP of the team the year they won and it probably would have been Green had they pulled it out the following year, especially given how good Green was in Game 7 (and that is with him even missing the game).  I mean Draymond was the best player on the floor in game 7 (yes better than even Lebron).  It was Curry's game 7 egg that lost the Warriors that game (Thompson was just as bad so I suppose it wasn't all on Curry).  Curry also wilted under the pressure of game 6 against the Raptors.  If Durant plays that series, Golden State would have 3-peated and it wouldn't have been close. 

Curry was the most important cog to the Warriors regular season success during that 5 year run, but he also was super duper prone to coming up short when it mattered most.  They don't win those last two titles without Durant.  He was the best player for those Warriors in the finals, and it wasn't close (Lebron and Durant were neck and neck as the best player in the world those two seasons and both had epic Finals in those back to back seasons). 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 03:34:56 PM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
  • Tommy Points: 392
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.


LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
Can you read the title of the thread? Curry would've been in the top 4 if he wasn't injured this season.

And Davis' 2018 Pelicans were plenty difficult to handle, they swept a pretty good Blazers team and didn't get curbstomped by a dominant Warriors squad.


"Top Players of 2020" isn't exactly a crystal clear title.

It could be "top players who played this year" or it could mean "an updated list of the top players in the NBA as of 2020"


There was one decent Pelicans squad with Davis. Otherwise they were middling at best, even when he had pre-injury Demarcus Cousins playing with him.

Davis is a force of nature, but I don't think any player who can't be the primary creator for an offense can be a true top 5 / MVP type player the way the game is played in the NBA now.
Find the latter to be nitpicking when these lists are usually made in response to an entire season, but that sounds reasonable I guess.

And those Pelicans teams weren't that great outside of Davis and Boogie besides that one year. Jrue Holiday struggled with injuries until 2018 and their supporting pieces were players like Solomon Hill and E'Twuan Moore.

Davis might not be able to quarterback a top offence, but his defence is absolutely able to elevate a team to title winning heights when you consider how good his offence is next to on-ball creators - you don't even need to get a LeBron type of offensive engine for him to be in a role where his offensive strengths are close to being optimised, he can thrive with a "Kemba" type (yes Kembas don't grow on trees, but you're not building very strong teams with a barren supporting cast even around the very best players of all time). I think the way the modern NBA is played really amplifies his strengths more than anything: his defensive versatility makes him somewhat of a cheat code due to how well he can adjust to different kinds of offences and chip away chunks of value from them while his offence can hold the fort decently well as a more traditional post star (strong post scoring and dynamic lead passing) but mesh excellently with modern perimeter stars (GOAT level finishing and off-ball movement for a big, decent shooting and extra passing) to amplify the sum of the team's parts on that end.

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 03:53:04 PM »

Offline Somebody

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
  • Tommy Points: 392
  • KANSEI DORIFUTO
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.

LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
to be honest, this past postseason has me thinking it's a shorter list: Lebron, Durant and maybe Doncic.  Bucks and Clips failing to get to the respective conference finals took the luster off Giannis and Kawhi for me.  Curry doesn't get to that level for me -- take away Klay and/or Green and GSW isn't at the top of the west with just Curry carrying them.  Jokic is a terrific player but he's not playing a position that allows him to dominate with the ball nor provide tough D on what's typically the other team's best player.
What has Durant done?  He had to jump to GSW and ride Curry's coattails to get a championship.
Uh...KD was the best player on those Warriors title teams, without him they would only have the one title, and they only won that title because Kyrie and Love were injured that year.
Looks at on/off data that suggests GSW's performance doesn't budge much with or without Durant and that the real driver of their excellence is the Curry/Draymond duo

Winning bias much?
Except, the year they won Iggy was deemed the MVP of the Warriors (he had a higher TS% than Curry even).  And they likely only won because Irving and Love missed the series.  Curry needed Durant.  Without him, the Cavs just bullied Curry and he wasn't anywhere near as effective, which is why Iggy was deemed the MVP of the team the year they won and it probably would have been Green had they pulled it out the following year, especially given how good Green was in Game 7 (and that is with him even missing the game).  I mean Draymond was the best player on the floor in game 7 (yes better than even Lebron).  It was Curry's game 7 egg that lost the Warriors that game (Thompson was just as bad so I suppose it wasn't all on Curry).  Curry also wilted under the pressure of game 6 against the Raptors.  If Durant plays that series, Golden State would have 3-peated and it wouldn't have been close. 

Curry was the most important cog to the Warriors regular season success during that 5 year run, but he also was super duper prone to coming up short when it mattered most.  They don't win those last two titles without Durant.  He was the best player for those Warriors in the finals, and it wasn't close (Lebron and Durant were neck and neck as the best player in the world those two seasons and both had epic Finals in those back to back seasons).
Except that awards are a terrible evaluator of player value and Iggy's TS% being higher than Curry's in that series is not a knock on the latter when the former was basically a finisher of high percentage shots on offence. Curry was playing through injury in 2016 and his playoff run was still pretty good overall, he dropped a 30 point game where the Warriors could've closed the Cavs out in 6 before he "laid an egg" in game 7 so I don't really see it as "choking". Curry didn't wilt in game 6 of the NBA finals when the Raptors defence was gung ho on trying to stop him at the expense of leaving wide open shots for his teammates, they just couldn't buy a bucket and one of the only two who could missed the entire fourth quarter due to a torn ACL, leaving Curry's supporting cast even more barren against a strong defensive team led by one of the best volume scorers in playoff history. Also don't see the "if Durant played" hypothetical gives any credence to him being the best player on the team, it's not rocket science that adding an MVP calibre player to a team with another MVP calibre player and two All-NBAers makes a historically stacked team that will curbstomp all opposition save the very best teams in NBA history.

Curry was the driver of the Warriors' excellence in both the regular season and the playoffs, select moments where he didn't look like a human flamethrower because defences were throwing 2-3 men at him to stop him for lighting them up doesn't make him "super duper prone to coming up short when it mattered the most", it's an indictment on his teammates being unable to make easy plays if anything even when you have acres of space opened up by your lead star (and ironically Durant was the main beneficiary from Curry's gravity, making him look like he was the best player on the Warriors). The Warriors wouldn't have won those two titles without Durant, but they would've never even come close to winning them without Curry opening up everything for his teammates, that was how good he was during that run as the only real rival to LeBron's two way excellence with multiple GOAT level offensive seasons.

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2020, 01:25:16 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23379
  • Tommy Points: 1119
Where the heck is Steph Curry in this list?  Is this just from this season?


I wouldn't put Embiid in the top 10 until he proves he can actually have the stamina to be dominant in a playoff series other than the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters.


Davis is in the 6-10 range for me until he does something to make me think that him on a team of average players is anything other than an also-ran.  We've seen what AD looks like when he's the clear cut best player on a team.  Super productive, tough to guard, but not a guy who by himself makes a team really hard to handle.

LeBron, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic -- that's the top tier for me.
to be honest, this past postseason has me thinking it's a shorter list: Lebron, Durant and maybe Doncic.  Bucks and Clips failing to get to the respective conference finals took the luster off Giannis and Kawhi for me.  Curry doesn't get to that level for me -- take away Klay and/or Green and GSW isn't at the top of the west with just Curry carrying them.  Jokic is a terrific player but he's not playing a position that allows him to dominate with the ball nor provide tough D on what's typically the other team's best player.
What has Durant done?  He had to jump to GSW and ride Curry's coattails to get a championship.
Uh...KD was the best player on those Warriors title teams, without him they would only have the one title, and they only won that title because Kyrie and Love were injured that year.
Looks at on/off data that suggests GSW's performance doesn't budge much with or without Durant and that the real driver of their excellence is the Curry/Draymond duo

Winning bias much?
Except, the year they won Iggy was deemed the MVP of the Warriors (he had a higher TS% than Curry even).  And they likely only won because Irving and Love missed the series.  Curry needed Durant.  Without him, the Cavs just bullied Curry and he wasn't anywhere near as effective, which is why Iggy was deemed the MVP of the team the year they won and it probably would have been Green had they pulled it out the following year, especially given how good Green was in Game 7 (and that is with him even missing the game).  I mean Draymond was the best player on the floor in game 7 (yes better than even Lebron).  It was Curry's game 7 egg that lost the Warriors that game (Thompson was just as bad so I suppose it wasn't all on Curry).  Curry also wilted under the pressure of game 6 against the Raptors.  If Durant plays that series, Golden State would have 3-peated and it wouldn't have been close. 

Curry was the most important cog to the Warriors regular season success during that 5 year run, but he also was super duper prone to coming up short when it mattered most.  They don't win those last two titles without Durant.  He was the best player for those Warriors in the finals, and it wasn't close (Lebron and Durant were neck and neck as the best player in the world those two seasons and both had epic Finals in those back to back seasons).
Except that awards are a terrible evaluator of player value and Iggy's TS% being higher than Curry's in that series is not a knock on the latter when the former was basically a finisher of high percentage shots on offence. Curry was playing through injury in 2016 and his playoff run was still pretty good overall, he dropped a 30 point game where the Warriors could've closed the Cavs out in 6 before he "laid an egg" in game 7 so I don't really see it as "choking". Curry didn't wilt in game 6 of the NBA finals when the Raptors defence was gung ho on trying to stop him at the expense of leaving wide open shots for his teammates, they just couldn't buy a bucket and one of the only two who could missed the entire fourth quarter due to a torn ACL, leaving Curry's supporting cast even more barren against a strong defensive team led by one of the best volume scorers in playoff history. Also don't see the "if Durant played" hypothetical gives any credence to him being the best player on the team, it's not rocket science that adding an MVP calibre player to a team with another MVP calibre player and two All-NBAers makes a historically stacked team that will curbstomp all opposition save the very best teams in NBA history.

Curry was the driver of the Warriors' excellence in both the regular season and the playoffs, select moments where he didn't look like a human flamethrower because defences were throwing 2-3 men at him to stop him for lighting them up doesn't make him "super duper prone to coming up short when it mattered the most", it's an indictment on his teammates being unable to make easy plays if anything even when you have acres of space opened up by your lead star (and ironically Durant was the main beneficiary from Curry's gravity, making him look like he was the best player on the Warriors). The Warriors wouldn't have won those two titles without Durant, but they would've never even come close to winning them without Curry opening up everything for his teammates, that was how good he was during that run as the only real rival to LeBron's two way excellence with multiple GOAT level offensive seasons.
Maybe if Curry doesn't foul out of game 6 they win.  He only played 35 minutes and was in foul trouble the whole game until he fouled out (he also picked up a technical and had 4 turnovers and just 2 rebounds and 1 assist along with a steal).  He shot much better in that game then he did in game 7, but he did not play particularly well either, he just wasn't atrocious.  He was also pretty bad in game 5 when his team needed him to really step up with Draymond being out (Thompson on the other hand had an epic game 5).  He was 5 of 15 from three in game 5 and the Warriors scored a whopping 13 points in the 4th quarter after only scoring 23 in the 3rd.  Curry was just 2 of 8 from 3 and 2 of 5 from 2 in the 2nd half.  And he let Irving just absolutely torch him for 23 2nd half points.  That was actually a pretty consistent theme for Curry that series.  I mean in the final 3 games of that series Curry was just 3 of 12 from 3 in the 4th quarter (he didn't play much in the 4th quarter in the 1st 4 games, and only took three 3's total making all 3). 

I don't disagree with your larger point regarding Curry's overall importance, but he has come up short a lot in the most meaningful games in part because he is frail and can be muscled up, which the better teams have been able to do to him (like Cleveland and Toronto or the Spurs earlier in his career).  Even against the Thunder that year when the Thunder blew the 3-1 lead, Curry was only really great in the 4th quarter in game 7 and he wasn't very good in game 5 and 6, which all 3 were Warrior wins.  The only other game that was close was game 1 and Curry was downright terrible in the 4th quarter of that game, which is a large reason why the Thunder won it. 

Curry consistently comes up short in the 4th quarter of the most meaningful games.  At some point it stops being a coincidence and becomes a trend. 
Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Re: Thinking Basketball's Top 10 Players of 2020
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2020, 03:55:19 PM »

Online Csfan1984

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6995
  • Tommy Points: 177
I'm feeling like it's not worth ranking top 10 guys anymore. As many pointed out most these guys outside the top tier have serious flaws or need more growth.

So for 2020 it's top tier
Lebron, Giannis, AD, Kawhi

Then a good second tier of guys
Harden, Doncic, Butler, Tatum, Jokic, Lillard, PG, Embiid, Mitchell, Beal, Young

Then 3rd tier
Bam, Westbrook, CP3, Murray, Gorbert, Middelton, Brown, Simmons, Walker, and about another say 12 guys lol

Point is if you look at it as tiers it's probably easier to make the case for where guys go and not a huge deal. Of course missing 4 monster players this year changes how a top ten goes. Curry and KD are usually on it for me the last 4 years