Poll

Is it fair for LA to count the minnesota titles ?

Yes it’s 100% fair.
13 (40.6%)
Not fair. Minnesota isn’t LA.
19 (59.4%)

Total Members Voted: 32

Author Topic: Is it fair the Lakers can count the Minnesota titles as their achievements?  (Read 2855 times)

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Online gouki88

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Yes.  Hate the Lakers all you want, but the franchise is the franchise.

Where I ind things to get more blurry is with things like the Hornets moving to New Orleans, then Charlotte getting a new franchise (the Bobcats), but later taking back the name the Hornets.  Or the Cleveland Browns in the NFL.  Those aren't direct lineages of franchises, but the records count the same.
I wonder, what would happen if a team like the Sacramento Kings (whose title comes from their time in Rochester) moved to Seattle and became the SuperSonics of old. Could make it even more of a muddied water!

If the LA Lakers honoured those who won the titles for 'the franchise' as they deserve, rather than just pretending they don't exist, then I'd be in agreement with all those who are saying they're fine to count them. However, for as long as they don't, it will always seem wrong to me

Offline Moranis

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Yes.  Hate the Lakers all you want, but the franchise is the franchise.

Where I ind things to get more blurry is with things like the Hornets moving to New Orleans, then Charlotte getting a new franchise (the Bobcats), but later taking back the name the Hornets.  Or the Cleveland Browns in the NFL.  Those aren't direct lineages of franchises, but the records count the same.
I wonder, what would happen if a team like the Sacramento Kings (whose title comes from their time in Rochester) moved to Seattle and became the SuperSonics of old. Could make it even more of a muddied water!

If the LA Lakers honoured those who won the titles for 'the franchise' as they deserve, rather than just pretending they don't exist, then I'd be in agreement with all those who are saying they're fine to count them. However, for as long as they don't, it will always seem wrong to me
The Lakers have George Mikan, Clyde Lovellette, Slater Martin, Jim Pollard, Vern Mikkelsen, and coach John Kundla in the rafters.  They haven't officially retired the numbers (Kundla obviously doesn't have one being a coach).  Though Martin's is retired because Baylor also wore it and started wearing it while still in Minnesota (Lovellette's is also retired because of Shaq, but obviously that was long after and not the same as Martin/Baylor).  However, the reality is that Mikan is the only number from the Minnesota time-period that should actually be retired (based on production, importance, etc.) and no Laker has worn 99 since Mikan.  They should just retire it since it appears in practice it is retired anyway.
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Offline jambr380

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It's confusing. As has been mentioned, the Thunder don't really get to claim the Sonics Title and the Kings don't really get to claim the Royals Title. And if they do, would Rochester and Seattle get the rights to their Title back if they got new teams? Should the T-Wolves get the Minnesota Lakers Titles? That seems to be the precedent set in the CHA/NOP case. If the Lakers had simply changed their name when they moved to LA, would this even be an argument right now?

I tend to lean to rnr's opinion of the Titles belonging to a city AND franchise. While the team was comprised of the same players and same management, LA never was able to celebrate the those Titles, and these Titles would mean very little w/o the fans supporting them. When the Ravens won a SB, CLE fans weren't partying in the streets even though that team was just recently theirs.

And if this isn't enough, two of Minny's Titles weren't even won in the NBA. Their first two were won in the NBL and BAA, respectively. I know this might be splitting hairs, but these weren't exactly 'NBA' Championships.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 09:09:08 PM by jambr380 »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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It's confusing. As has been mentioned, the Thunder don't really get to claim the Sonics Title and the Kings don't really get to claim the Royals Title. And if they do, would Rochester and Seattle get the rights to their Title back is they got new teams? Should the T-Wolves get the Minnesota Lakers Titles? That seems to be the precedent set in the CHA/NOP case. If the Lakers had simply changed their name when they moved to LA, would this even be an argument right now?

I tend to lean to rnr's opinion of the Titles belonging to a city AND franchise. While the team was comprised of the same players and same management, LA never was able to celebrate the those Titles, and these Titles would mean very little w/o the fans supporting them. When the Ravens won a SB, CLE fans weren't partying in the streets even though that team was just recently theirs.

And if this isn't enough, two of Minny's Titles weren't even won in the NBA. Their first two were won in the NBL and BAA, respectively. I know this might be splitting hairs, but these weren't exactly 'NBA' Championships.

All of this is well said and I agree 100%, but the bolded is an especially good point: the city and the fans are really a part of the franchise; the franchise isn't just the ownership, management, and players.

So, you're absolutely right—the Ravens winning a Super Bowl was zero cause for celebration, or consolation, for left-behind Browns fans. And OKC doesn't care at all about the 1979 Sonics title.

And that's a great point—one I didn't realize—about the Minny titles that aren't even really NBA titles.
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Offline Moranis

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It's confusing. As has been mentioned, the Thunder don't really get to claim the Sonics Title and the Kings don't really get to claim the Royals Title. And if they do, would Rochester and Seattle get the rights to their Title back is they got new teams? Should the T-Wolves get the Minnesota Lakers Titles? That seems to be the precedent set in the CHA/NOP case. If the Lakers had simply changed their name when they moved to LA, would this even be an argument right now?

I tend to lean to rnr's opinion of the Titles belonging to a city AND franchise. While the team was comprised of the same players and same management, LA never was able to celebrate the those Titles, and these Titles would mean very little w/o the fans supporting them. When the Ravens won a SB, CLE fans weren't partying in the streets even though that team was just recently theirs.

And if this isn't enough, two of Minny's Titles weren't even won in the NBA. Their first two were won in the NBL and BAA, respectively. I know this might be splitting hairs, but these weren't exactly 'NBA' Championships.

All of this is well said and I agree 100%, but the bolded is an especially good point: the city and the fans are really a part of the franchise; the franchise isn't just the ownership, management, and players.

So, you're absolutely right—the Ravens winning a Super Bowl was zero cause for celebration, or consolation, for left-behind Browns fans. And OKC doesn't care at all about the 1979 Sonics title.

And that's a great point—one I didn't realize—about the Minny titles that aren't even really NBA titles.
The BAA only existed for three years and then it became the NBA when it merged with the NBL.  Only Minnesota's first title was in the BAA, the other 4 were in the NBA.  The NBA claims the BAA's 3 years as a part of its history and doesn't recognize the NBL at all.  In essence, the NBA treats the BAA like its own and that the NBL additions were nothing more than an expansion of the league which prompted a name change.

So the Warriors, Bullets, and Lakers all won "NBA" titles even though the league was called the BAA.  And that Bullets team ended up folding in 1954 so it is not part of the history of the current Wizards, which came back as the Chicago Packers in 1961.  The Warriors do however count the initial BAA title as a title in their history as they do the one in 56, both of which were in Philadelphia.
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Offline NKY fan

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If that would make any of you feel better about lakers 17th championship - I don’t think they are getting a parade to celebrate 😈

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Whatever.

I'm resigned to BOS's fate - at least temporarily.

Barring a complete miracle LAL will probably come out of this weekend with their 17th championship - and making them ARGUABLY more relevant than even BOS  :'(

I say this because they would've had ARGUABLY more of their championships stretched out over the years....whereas BOS had that HUGE gap from 1986 until 2008.

Don't think (IIRC) LAL has had THAT kind of bad stretch.

The absolute best we can hope for is that Danny gets mad, Wyc and Co open up the pocket books and AT LEAST shore up the bench a bit.

GET GH back - I hope - on the cheap.

And I'd LOVE for us to kick the tires at least on Isaiah Thomas, IT4. We need a shot in the arm and if he "IS" healthy finally getting him back in BOS would be HUGE for this team.

As for the thread title? I'd simply try and avoid Laker fans for the near future - especially the mouthy and braggy ones. You KNOW it's coming so just run.

Being honest....and let's assume that BOS will be RIGHT BACK HERE next year this time. We DO have a larger window.

But let's just get ready to avoid most LAL fans until then.

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Online SparzWizard

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If that would make any of you feel better about lakers 17th championship - I don’t think they are getting a parade to celebrate 😈

Living in LA, just saw on the news Staples Center is being blocked, preventing any celebrations.

And Mayor Garcetti discourages celebration outside the streets in a full crowd lol. They're now figuring out how to celebrate tonight.

My take? Just lose 3 more games to Miami and they won't need to celebrate.

Online SparzWizard

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Whatever.

I'm resigned to BOS's fate - at least temporarily.

Barring a complete miracle LAL will probably come out of this weekend with their 17th championship - and making them ARGUABLY more relevant than even BOS  :'(

I say this because they would've had ARGUABLY more of their championships stretched out over the years....whereas BOS had that HUGE gap from 1986 until 2008.

Don't think (IIRC) LAL has had THAT kind of bad stretch.

The absolute best we can hope for is that Danny gets mad, Wyc and Co open up the pocket books and AT LEAST shore up the bench a bit.

GET GH back - I hope - on the cheap.

And I'd LOVE for us to kick the tires at least on Isaiah Thomas, IT4. We need a shot in the arm and if he "IS" healthy finally getting him back in BOS would be HUGE for this team.

As for the thread title? I'd simply try and avoid Laker fans for the near future - especially the mouthy and braggy ones. You KNOW it's coming so just run.

Being honest....and let's assume that BOS will be RIGHT BACK HERE next year this time. We DO have a larger window.

But let's just get ready to avoid most LAL fans until then.

The Celtics franchise is very tight-knit with their front office personnel like it's a family. Maybe it's time Wyc should think about Danny's operation. 17 years since being hired as an exec and only one championship? He's gotta do better than that. Rival teams like the Lakers, Heat, Spurs, Warriors have all won multiple titles in the same decade or in a short period of time. He needs to do a perfect job at drafting and making trades. As for the coach- wish we had a new coach cuz I still think we're not getting anywhere with this guy with hands in his pocket walking up and down on the sideline. Celtics injury fest- can we also take a look at the conditioning crew? Why are the players always hurt? Why is the same player always hurt?

Lakers are bound to win a championship at least once every 10 years now (2000, 2010, 2020). It's gonna be so annoying hearing them brag about their 17 banners and how they're the superior franchise than the Celtics. Hate that they don't suffer long enough and they instantly become title contenders by landing both LeBron and Davis.

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Whatever.

I'm resigned to BOS's fate - at least temporarily.

Barring a complete miracle LAL will probably come out of this weekend with their 17th championship - and making them ARGUABLY more relevant than even BOS  :'(

I say this because they would've had ARGUABLY more of their championships stretched out over the years....whereas BOS had that HUGE gap from 1986 until 2008.

Don't think (IIRC) LAL has had THAT kind of bad stretch.

The absolute best we can hope for is that Danny gets mad, Wyc and Co open up the pocket books and AT LEAST shore up the bench a bit.

GET GH back - I hope - on the cheap.

And I'd LOVE for us to kick the tires at least on Isaiah Thomas, IT4. We need a shot in the arm and if he "IS" healthy finally getting him back in BOS would be HUGE for this team.

As for the thread title? I'd simply try and avoid Laker fans for the near future - especially the mouthy and braggy ones. You KNOW it's coming so just run.

Being honest....and let's assume that BOS will be RIGHT BACK HERE next year this time. We DO have a larger window.

But let's just get ready to avoid most LAL fans until then.

The Celtics franchise is very tight-knit with their front office personnel like it's a family. Maybe it's time Wyc should think about Danny's operation. 17 years since being hired as an exec and only one championship? He's gotta do better than that. Rival teams like the Lakers, Heat, Spurs, Warriors have all won multiple titles in the same decade or in a short period of time. He needs to do a perfect job at drafting and making trades. As for the coach- wish we had a new coach cuz I still think we're not getting anywhere with this guy with hands in his pocket walking up and down on the sideline. Celtics injury fest- can we also take a look at the conditioning crew? Why are the players always hurt? Why is the same player always hurt?

Lakers are bound to win a championship at least once every 10 years now (2000, 2010, 2020). It's gonna be so annoying hearing them brag about their 17 banners and how they're the superior franchise than the Celtics. Hate that they don't suffer long enough and they instantly become title contenders by landing both LeBron and Davis.

I don't think Danny or Wyc or Brad are the issues, IMO....

You need HORSES nowadays to win this thing.

Didn't we have a SMALL window of getting the BIG horse? LeBron? Once he left CLE? I know it was BRIEFLY rumored...

We were JUST off of a STELLAR run with the Young Jays and AL Horford - where we took CLE to 7 games. I know Steven A Smith even briefly discussed LeBron to BOS.

The rest is history.

It is NO fluke that since 2010-11 LeBron James has factored in SO MANY shots at winning a championship - whether it was in CLE, MIA or NOW in LAL......

You DO have Durant and GSW...but for THAT situation they basically stacked the deck in their OWN favor....

Our OWN horses are just about ready to take that next step...there is LITTLE likelyhood that our NEXT deep post-season run will come up empty, and I'm certain it will be SOON....

We can't fault Wyc, Danny, Doc Rivers or even Brad for KG's injury in Utah.....GH's injury THIS POST-SEASON......

I think our current setup is probably the best we can do - Wyc and Co - Danny - Brad (and Doc before Brad. We've had some rotten turns of events.

Just have to build properly around Kemba, Smart, The Jays and hopefully GH. There IS still time.

While seeing (probably) LAL get to 17 will be TOUGH we are RIGHT THERE ourselves....RIGHT THERE.
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Offline mmmmm

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The Lakers 'franchise' can certainly claim to have each of the titles that their franchise won.

But how many Laker fans can actually claim to have rooted for all the teams that won each title?  How many fans who rooted for the MN titles continued to root for the teams that won the LA titles?  And vice versa?   I suspect that is a very tiny number.

Championships are experiential events, not just for the players on the 'franchise' but also for the fans who experience it.  For a MN fan who rooted for the Lakers when they were there  - do his/her experiences & memories now belong to some fan in LA who never heard of George Mikan?

Most former Seattle SuperSonic fans I know despise the Thunder and don't root for that team.   I lived in Baltimore for a long time and every former Baltimore Colt fan I knew cherished the memory of Johnny Unitas but hated the Indianapolis Colts with a passion - even before they got the former Browns franchise and it became the Ravens.  And I know of no Baltimore sports bar that has a bunch of pictures paying homage to the Browns legacy from before the Ravens moved.  You see pictures of Unitas, Lenny Moore and Alan Ameche next to pictures of Ray Lewis.

At some point, outside the legal, technical association of a title with the franchise, the championships are ultimately 'won' for the fans who paid for the tickets and rooted for the teams - who experienced those playoff runs - and in at least an emotional sense, the experience of rooting for those victories 'belong' to those fans.

At least for Boston, there are a huge number of Celtic fans alive today who have rooted for each and every one their titles.   The experience of watching their team win took place in Boston for every one of those banners.

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Offline ManchesterCelticsFan

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The Minneapolis Lakers fans financially & emotionally supported the 1950’s Lakers. The Minnesota fans are primarily responsible for the 5 championships the won while there. If not for the fans, they would not be able to afford the players and hence, no championships! To count the 5 championships to Los Angeles fans is bleeping ludicrous! It’s a slap in the face to the old school Minneapolis fans! Fans are the backbone of the team, not some “name” assigned to a franchise…

Offline Roy H.

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Some trivia:  Clyde Lovellette is the only player in history to win titles with both the Lakers and Celtics.  However, he won his title with the Minneapolis Lakers.  Tonight, Rajon Rondo could become the only player in history to win titles with the Boston Celtics and LA Lakers.
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Offline NKY fan

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Some trivia:  Clyde Lovellette is the only player in history to win titles with both the Lakers and Celtics.  However, he won his title with the Minneapolis Lakers.  Tonight, Rajon Rondo could become the only player in history to win titles with the Boston Celtics and LA Lakers.
Rondo has got to be the most polarizing player in the history of nba. Is there another player loved and hated by both fan bases at the same time?
He also stuck it it to Danny and Rick Carlisle with his ring tonight ....

Offline tenn_smoothie

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It looks like they’re about to win “banner 17” and tie the Celtics


Is it fair that the Los Angeles Lakers count 5 titles the team technically won in Minnesota?

Always felt the city is very important to the achievement of winning a championship.  From the fans, to the arena, to the regional draft picks, to swaying free agents, the city adds many important elements to a team that should not be discounted.  OKC Thunder shouldn’t really brag about any achievements the Seattle SuperSonics made, even though it’s the same team technically.... right ?


My opinion is that LA found an opportunity to pad their team history and claim another cities achievements as their own

Exactly. I don't think they even acknowledged those titles until they had closed the gap on us a little. They still don't have individual banners for those 5 Minny championships. Just one flag at the bottom of the hideous wall where they have tacked up their history.

 This whole thing is sickening. To have Lebron, the great basketball mercenary, leading that group of misfits makes this all the more disgraceful.
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