Author Topic: Trump's America  (Read 11310 times)

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Re: Trump's America
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2020, 01:34:17 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Nobody blames him entirely for COVID ?  :laugh:

Failure to encourage mask wearing, yeah I never understood this one. I think he was just annoyed at how people were politicizing it. Definitely agree he should have.
-Hosting large events in the middle of a pandemic, threat is very low based on the science of transmission and they are going willingly.
-Pushing ineffective treatments, You dont know that.
-Encouraged states to stay open/open earlier than they should, not his decision
-Complained about too much testing (just the worst), the point was actually that our rates were highest because we test the most. Other countries are misleading on their numbers.
-Downplay the seriousness of the disease, Probably. Again, He shut the country down pretty [dang] early. Does he get any credit for that ?
-Failure to help properly distribute PPE early on, this is a flat out lie.
-Currently stalling out on releasing aid to cities/states to deal with budget shortfalls, Untrue
cutting enhanced unemployment, It ran out... Congress isnt passing anything new.
trying to repeal ACA during a pandemic.  In all fairness he ran on this and got elected.

-Well its super encouraging the president can totally fail to encourage the absolute easiest mitigation efforts because he's "annoyed" 
-Threat is extremely high at large events, especially indoor ones. iIs literally the first thing we stopped doing as a country. People choosing to go doesn't make it a good idea to have them. Actually try being a leader rather than succumbing to your own ego.
-We LITERALLY DO KNOW he pushed treatments that have not been scientifically demonstrated to be effective and in fact may have negative side effects.
-It is not directly his decision to close, but he is the leader of the free world. If he tells republican governors to close their states, they will, because they do almost everything he asks. Believing otherwise is unbearably naive.
-His point may very well have been numbers are overinflated because we test a lot. But that itself is incredibly stupid, because testing has no effect on the actual problem. It doesn't go away if you shove your head in the sand. Its just information, incredibly important information that allows us to slow the spread of the virus. And another area in which Trump failed as the US lagged behind worldwide testing rates for months. 
-No, its not. He could have for instance coordinated distribution at the national level. Instead he allowed states to largely fend for themselves. Its well documented.
-Yes aid ran out, aid ran out because the president and republicans don't want to authorize more. No problem giving a tax break to millionaires but god forbid states/cities/people need money in a crisis. To be fair I think this may be more a Republican Senate issue, as Trump has never seemed to have an issue spending money or going into debt to do so.
-I mean sure, he ran on repealing and ACA. When there wasn't a pandemic. I dont know, rethink things based on context?

And no, he doesn't get credit  for the travel ban/shutdown. For a pretty obvious reason: His complete lack of competence in all other areas of this crisis meant he largely squandered any advantage those actions gave the country. Both of those are meant to "buy time" while you formulate a plan, he never did and in fact continued to downplay the seriousness of the threat even as we shutdown.

If you wnat to support/vote for the guy in spite of these things thats your choice. You are allowed to make whatever value proposition you want. Just dont go trying to tell everybody Trump has been treated unfairly on this, he hasn't.


Re: Trump's America
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2020, 01:34:21 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.
It all depends on the version.

For health is it basic health care only? Is optional insurance provider?


If you had free college level learning online setup by the government that would not cost a ton of money. So long as final testing and licensing was something an individual purchased themselves I don't see a problem with it. Still makes universities and colleges necessary.

With Student loan debt is it forgive the principal but not the interest based on a lottery? Or is it all the debt for everyone? Is it a bigger tax write off?

Without seeing the bill hard to say what you are vetoing.

I feel some people have an all-out all expenses paid idea of these. That will never happen. It's smaller.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2020, 01:38:51 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.

Man give me the "high risk" of student loan forgiveness any day.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2020, 02:00:18 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.
The chances of the Democrats getting majority in the Senate is small.  Even if they did it would be a very small majority and the Republicans could filibuster.   The chance for universal single pa payer health care getting passed would be almost nil.  There probably would be something modest in regards to college tuition and student loan forgiveness but not free tuition for all or forgiveness of all student loan debt. 

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2020, 08:13:37 AM »

Offline Erik

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-Well its super encouraging the president can totally fail to encourage the absolute easiest mitigation efforts because he's "annoyed" 

It's not his job, but sure. If you'd like to belong to the nanny state and need the president to tell you what to do with your own personal life, you and I walk two different paths. I've worn a mask everywhere since day 1. I don't need someone other than a doctor to explain to me the risks of covid. It's not his job.


-Threat is extremely high at large events, especially indoor ones. iIs literally the first thing we stopped doing as a country. People choosing to go doesn't make it a good idea to have them. Actually try being a leader rather than succumbing to your own ego.

AFAIK, every event since the first one has been outdoors and there is clearly social distancing and masks being worn, and people are facing the same direction.

-We LITERALLY DO KNOW he pushed treatments that have not been scientifically demonstrated to be effective and in fact may have negative side effects.

No you LITERALLY DO NOT. You are not a doctor (well you actually could be), nor are you anyone that knows what treatments hospitals are pushing. You're receiving your information from CNN, who has a paid interest in making him look foolish and discrediting everything that he has to say. The narrative is that "his treatments are unverified and have serious side effects." OK. How many people died based on those treatments? To make a baseless claim that they have side-effects.. well guess what... Every medicine has side effects -- including Tylenol.

-It is not directly his decision to close, but he is the leader of the free world. If he tells republican governors to close their states, they will, because they do almost everything he asks. Believing otherwise is unbearably naive.

Again, we saw no evidence of this. Democrats and Republicans both reopened about the same time... once we got our safety protocols in order, prepared the hospitals, and when the curve dropped to the point that hospitals could handle the incoming serious case infections.

-His point may very well have been numbers are overinflated because we test a lot. But that itself is incredibly stupid, because testing has no effect on the actual problem. It doesn't go away if you shove your head in the sand. Its just information, incredibly important information that allows us to slow the spread of the virus. And another area in which Trump failed as the US lagged behind worldwide testing rates for months. 

I know that you think that a president is a magician and can waive a wand and things get done, but it's just simply not true. Based on how slow government moves, I'd say he did a fantastic job getting states the aid they need to get their testing facilities in order.


-No, its not. He could have for instance coordinated distribution at the national level. Instead he allowed states to largely fend for themselves. Its well documented.

Because that is how it works. Again, please understand how government works.

-Yes aid ran out, aid ran out because the president and republicans don't want to authorize more. No problem giving a tax break to millionaires but god forbid states/cities/people need money in a crisis. To be fair I think this may be more a Republican Senate issue, as Trump has never seemed to have an issue spending money or going into debt to do so.

Considering the guy signed the first one, I don't know why you expect that he's the reason why they aren't passing another one? I prefer to go based on evidence as opposed to "he probably X."

-I mean sure, he ran on repealing and ACA. When there wasn't a pandemic. I dont know, rethink things based on context?

Again, you are implying that ACA is the best way to solve healthcare. There are a lot of people, like myself, that believe that the sole role of government in healthcare is to remove all of the red tape that makes things expensive. If things are cheap, you could literally buy the health insurance yourself like car insurance and not be tied to an employer or the federal government. In an ideal world, the pre-existing conditions would be solved through competition -- I would not buy your health insurance unless you cover pre-existing conditions. We're so far down the rabbit hole of terrible healthcare legislation that in reality there needs to be something mandating is because the current healthcare system is a complete monopoly.

And no, he doesn't get credit  for the travel ban/shutdown. For a pretty obvious reason: His complete lack of competence in all other areas of this crisis meant he largely squandered any advantage those actions gave the country. Both of those are meant to "buy time" while you formulate a plan, he never did and in fact continued to downplay the seriousness of the threat even as we shutdown.

OK.. the "buy time" part clearly shows me you're glued to the fake news. Re-read my paragraph on what the function of the federal government is in combating pandemics. It's their job to stop it from coming into the country. When he started imposing travel restrictions, it seemed like it was early and an overreaction to most. In hindsight, the guy was right. I can't say he was right, though, because it's likely Fauci or other people told him that he needs to act. Either way, he acted. The second role of the government in a pandemic that has already crossed the border is to provide aid to states -- which by all accounts (he's right on this), he did. The "formulating a plan" is on a state by state basis because Montana and New York have two separate needs in fighting COVID.


If you wnat to support/vote for the guy in spite of these things thats your choice. You are allowed to make whatever value proposition you want. Just dont go trying to tell everybody Trump has been treated unfairly on this, he hasn't.

How is Biden better in any regard? I view them as very close on a political spectrum. Biden is a much nicer person, but he is at high risk of passing programs that would be disastrous for our country. I wish I could be voting for Biden, but unfortunately you have to vote for the party platform because there's exactly no way he is vetoing any of the nonsense that comes his way.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 08:38:56 AM by Erik »

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2020, 08:14:32 AM »

Offline Erik

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.
It all depends on the version.

For health is it basic health care only? Is optional insurance provider?


If you had free college level learning online setup by the government that would not cost a ton of money. So long as final testing and licensing was something an individual purchased themselves I don't see a problem with it. Still makes universities and colleges necessary.

With Student loan debt is it forgive the principal but not the interest based on a lottery? Or is it all the debt for everyone? Is it a bigger tax write off?

Without seeing the bill hard to say what you are vetoing.

I feel some people have an all-out all expenses paid idea of these. That will never happen. It's smaller.

You know what they want. There is no light version. Even with a light version, this half capitalism half socialism approach is probably even worse than just picking one direction.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2020, 08:17:14 AM »

Offline Erik

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.
The chances of the Democrats getting majority in the Senate is small.  Even if they did it would be a very small majority and the Republicans could filibuster.   The chance for universal single pa payer health care getting passed would be almost nil.  There probably would be something modest in regards to college tuition and student loan forgiveness but not free tuition for all or forgiveness of all student loan debt.

It's true... but with mid terms, you could get an ACA type bill pushed through. It's not out of the possibility. With the supreme court in the "adult's" hands and the fact that it's Biden, I'm not freaking out as much. I'm still hoping that if Trump wins again, the left will reform and understand that the country is still center right and the party needs to rebrand. You know Biden would have to pass the full blown bills, though, if they somehow made it through congress.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2020, 08:37:08 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.

You seem to be lumping moderate Dems in with the Bernie crowd. While I believe something should be done to make healthcare a little more streamline, but something like student loan forgiveness is hardly universally agreed upon from the Dem side, and I assure you Biden is not a socialist. I wouldn't be voting for him if he was.

Hillary had previously been in favor of free community college, but against full 4 year university tuition. I tend to agree with her on this. First, a university education is expensive and not everybody needs one; community college is dirt cheap, however, and there are many programs that would help regular people get the training they need for a career. This is the kind of investment that could help our future as a whole w/o breaking the bank to do it.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2020, 08:45:03 AM »

Offline Erik

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Let me pose this question to the group.

Do any of you believe that Biden would veto any of these?
Universal single payer health care
Free college tuition
Forgiveness of student loan debt

These 3 policies that hes been dancing around but never formally endorsed are at a high risk of being passed if hes president and Democrats get majority.

This would completely put education and healthcare industries fully in the hands of the federal government.

You seem to be lumping moderate Dems in with the Bernie crowd. While I believe something should be done to make healthcare a little more streamline, but something like student loan forgiveness is hardly universally agreed upon from the Dem side, and I assure you Biden is not a socialist. I wouldn't be voting for him if he was.

Hillary had previously been in favor of free community college, but against full 4 year university tuition. I tend to agree with her on this. First, a university education is expensive and not everybody needs one; community college is dirt cheap, however, and there are many programs that would help regular people get the training they need for a career. This is the kind of investment that could help our future as a whole w/o breaking the bank to do it.

I am lumping them together because in the democratic primary, the Sanders + Warren support was roughly 40% of the party. That's a big deal.

Could you please answer the question?

Do you think he would veto any of the above bills that are the target of a rather large portion (40%) of the democratic party? I know Trump would 100%.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2020, 09:47:18 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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-Well its super encouraging the president can totally fail to encourage the absolute easiest mitigation efforts because he's "annoyed" 

It's not his job, but sure. If you'd like to belong to the nanny state and need the president to tell you what to do with your own personal life, you and I walk two different paths. I've worn a mask everywhere since day 1. I don't need someone other than a doctor to explain to me the risks of covid. It's not his job.


-Threat is extremely high at large events, especially indoor ones. iIs literally the first thing we stopped doing as a country. People choosing to go doesn't make it a good idea to have them. Actually try being a leader rather than succumbing to your own ego.

AFAIK, every event since the first one has been outdoors and there is clearly social distancing and masks being worn, and people are facing the same direction.

-We LITERALLY DO KNOW he pushed treatments that have not been scientifically demonstrated to be effective and in fact may have negative side effects.

No you LITERALLY DO NOT. You are not a doctor (well you actually could be), nor are you anyone that knows what treatments hospitals are pushing. You're receiving your information from CNN, who has a paid interest in making him look foolish and discrediting everything that he has to say. The narrative is that "his treatments are unverified and have serious side effects." OK. How many people died based on those treatments? To make a baseless claim that they have side-effects.. well guess what... Every medicine has side effects -- including Tylenol.

-It is not directly his decision to close, but he is the leader of the free world. If he tells republican governors to close their states, they will, because they do almost everything he asks. Believing otherwise is unbearably naive.

Again, we saw no evidence of this. Democrats and Republicans both reopened about the same time... once we got our safety protocols in order, prepared the hospitals, and when the curve dropped to the point that hospitals could handle the incoming serious case infections.

-His point may very well have been numbers are overinflated because we test a lot. But that itself is incredibly stupid, because testing has no effect on the actual problem. It doesn't go away if you shove your head in the sand. Its just information, incredibly important information that allows us to slow the spread of the virus. And another area in which Trump failed as the US lagged behind worldwide testing rates for months. 

I know that you think that a president is a magician and can waive a wand and things get done, but it's just simply not true. Based on how slow government moves, I'd say he did a fantastic job getting states the aid they need to get their testing facilities in order.


-No, its not. He could have for instance coordinated distribution at the national level. Instead he allowed states to largely fend for themselves. Its well documented.

Because that is how it works. Again, please understand how government works.

-Yes aid ran out, aid ran out because the president and republicans don't want to authorize more. No problem giving a tax break to millionaires but god forbid states/cities/people need money in a crisis. To be fair I think this may be more a Republican Senate issue, as Trump has never seemed to have an issue spending money or going into debt to do so.

Considering the guy signed the first one, I don't know why you expect that he's the reason why they aren't passing another one? I prefer to go based on evidence as opposed to "he probably X."

-I mean sure, he ran on repealing and ACA. When there wasn't a pandemic. I dont know, rethink things based on context?

Again, you are implying that ACA is the best way to solve healthcare. There are a lot of people, like myself, that believe that the sole role of government in healthcare is to remove all of the red tape that makes things expensive. If things are cheap, you could literally buy the health insurance yourself like car insurance and not be tied to an employer or the federal government. In an ideal world, the pre-existing conditions would be solved through competition -- I would not buy your health insurance unless you cover pre-existing conditions. We're so far down the rabbit hole of terrible healthcare legislation that in reality there needs to be something mandating is because the current healthcare system is a complete monopoly.

And no, he doesn't get credit  for the travel ban/shutdown. For a pretty obvious reason: His complete lack of competence in all other areas of this crisis meant he largely squandered any advantage those actions gave the country. Both of those are meant to "buy time" while you formulate a plan, he never did and in fact continued to downplay the seriousness of the threat even as we shutdown.

OK.. the "buy time" part clearly shows me you're glued to the fake news. Re-read my paragraph on what the function of the federal government is in combating pandemics. It's their job to stop it from coming into the country. When he started imposing travel restrictions, it seemed like it was early and an overreaction to most. In hindsight, the guy was right. I can't say he was right, though, because it's likely Fauci or other people told him that he needs to act. Either way, he acted. The second role of the government in a pandemic that has already crossed the border is to provide aid to states -- which by all accounts (he's right on this), he did. The "formulating a plan" is on a state by state basis because Montana and New York have two separate needs in fighting COVID.


If you wnat to support/vote for the guy in spite of these things thats your choice. You are allowed to make whatever value proposition you want. Just dont go trying to tell everybody Trump has been treated unfairly on this, he hasn't.

How is Biden better in any regard? I view them as very close on a political spectrum. Biden is a much nicer person, but he is at high risk of passing programs that would be disastrous for our country. I wish I could be voting for Biden, but unfortunately you have to vote for the party platform because there's exactly no way he is vetoing any of the nonsense that comes his way.

Okay I think our fundamental disagreement on this is that we just think have completely different views on the federal governments role in a pandemic. You seem to think they have very little power to actually do anything, which makes sense because they didn't actually do much. I think that view is obviously wrong, and judging by polls on this issue so does most of America. But to each his own.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2020, 10:28:27 AM »

Offline Erik

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Agreed. This is a big problem.

There is a disconnect between the role of government and some people's desires. It doesn't change the fact that it's as clear as day as to what the roles are.

I heard a lot of people saying how it was great how China handled COVID so fast... well what you're missing there is that they can do that because you're giving up a significant amount of your personal freedoms to accomplish that through their quasi dictatorship.

If every single city and state shut down at the exact same time, it would have significantly stopped COVID. It's just not realistic in our form of government at all... and Trump is the scapegoat for that, unfortunately.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2020, 10:28:28 AM »

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It's not his job, but sure. If you'd like to belong to the nanny state and need the president to tell you what to do with your own personal life, you and I walk two different paths. I've worn a mask everywhere since day 1. I don't need someone other than a doctor to explain to me the risks of covid. It's not his job.


Erik, it's always been the president's job to lead.  This has been true throughout our history -- as Teddy Roosevelt called it "the Bully Pulpit"... as religious and other community leaders guide us with their points of view, I hope we are all both capable of making our own decisions while perhaps open enough to hear and consider what community voices are saying.

To suggest that we either live in a "nanny state" (a term use to insult and discount people who have a different point of view) OR it's "each person for themselves" is really not the choice.  There is LOADS of in-between.   And to be frank, living in a country of 350M people, with many people at or stuck in adolescence and or who are mentally fragile (even if 1%, that's 3.5 million people) -- yes, I think we need leaders willing to say - "here's what science tells us, here's what I'll be doing and here's what you can do to support the effort"...   People get to make there own decision, but it is sometimes the president's job to provide clear guidance, consistency, and not mixed messages. 

And it's OK with me if we walk different paths on what we want or expect from a president. I also don't need the POTUS to tell me what to do in order to act responsibly. But at the same time I do want my POTUS to lead -- especially in times of crisis.  I don't want people threatened with prison or fines for not wearing masks -- but I do want my national and community leaders to take a stand and model what they preach.  But I really have no problem being on a different page than you -- especially since we both end up doing the right thing (in this case the "safe" thing, or the thing best aligned with science/data)  -- and we can still find areas of agreement and unity.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2020, 10:41:02 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Agreed. This is a big problem.

There is a disconnect between the role of government and some people's desires. It doesn't change the fact that it's as clear as day as to what the roles are.


I heard a lot of people saying how it was great how China handled COVID so fast... well what you're missing there is that they can do that because you're giving up a significant amount of your personal freedoms to accomplish that through their quasi dictatorship.

If every single city and state shut down at the exact same time, it would have significantly stopped COVID. It's just not realistic in our form of government at all... and Trump is the scapegoat for that, unfortunately.

No man, this isn't actually the issue. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the federal government is for better or worse IMMENSELY powerful. And its situations exactly like this where that power can best be used for the good of people. It wasn't.  THAT'S THE FAILURE HERE. The leader of the free world failed to lead. He failed to even follow.

People are rightfully p---ed because they DO UNDERSTAND the role of the federal government, and it failed them here.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2020, 10:45:15 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Agreed. This is a big problem.

There is a disconnect between the role of government and some people's desires. It doesn't change the fact that it's as clear as day as to what the roles are.


Yes, there does seem to be a large portion of the country that doesn't really understand what powers the constitution actually grants the federal government and which powers are reserved for the states. 

And I get there are a lot of people that would prefer to increase the power of the federal government. Personally, I think it best to decrease federal power and return more of it to the states.

Re: Trump's America
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2020, 10:47:48 AM »

Offline Erik

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Agreed. This is a big problem.

There is a disconnect between the role of government and some people's desires. It doesn't change the fact that it's as clear as day as to what the roles are.


I heard a lot of people saying how it was great how China handled COVID so fast... well what you're missing there is that they can do that because you're giving up a significant amount of your personal freedoms to accomplish that through their quasi dictatorship.

If every single city and state shut down at the exact same time, it would have significantly stopped COVID. It's just not realistic in our form of government at all... and Trump is the scapegoat for that, unfortunately.

No man, this isn't actually the issue. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but the federal government is for better or worse IMMENSELY powerful. And its situations exactly like this where that power can best be used for the good of people. It wasn't.  THAT'S THE FAILURE HERE. The leader of the free world failed to lead. He failed to even follow.

People are rightfully p---ed because they DO UNDERSTAND the role of the federal government, and it failed them here.

I urge you to read through the entire constitution. It's 96 pages.